Why I Ditched Dave Ramsey


I was listening to Dave Ramsey on the radio yesterday and came to the conclusion that it was time to officially say goodbye.

Dave Ramsey’s tag-line is:
“Live like no one else so you can live like no one else!”

I think for his given audience the first part of his statement is valid: Live like no one else. He means live on “beans and rice” and pay off your debts. The truth is half the world lives on barely beans and rice and has nothing but a life of poverty to look forward to. But I digress.

The thing that bothers me is the second half of the “live like no one else.” statement. The idea is that once you’ve paid off your debt and saved your money you can spend it on what you want to. Now most folks want to hear that and so they are happy to listen and hear what Dave has to say. I have trouble cause my Bible (and I’m pretty sure it’s the same one) seems to say we are to be sacrificial in our lives, regardless of how well we’ve saved, etc. And that we should be good stewards, and wise consumers no matter what income/debt we have.

So this is what bothered me: A lady called in yesterday with a question. It was quite simple, her husband and her are debt free. The question was which is better: their current minivan or trading it for an SUV of equal value? Her husband wanted an SUV, but she was opting for sticking with the minivan. What’s the difference? Gas mileage. The topic of the environment didn’t come up, just the cost of a couple extra gallons of gas a week.


Dave’s Response: This is a silly question that you should not fret over. It’s not a “Kingdom issue” It’s maybe $30 a month difference in a debt-free household. She’s being a “tight-wad” (Which Dave says is not a bad thing), and needs to loosen up a little and enjoy the money they have.

sponsored childAriah’s Response
: Praise God that she cares about the different cost of gas mileage. $30 a month could be used to sponsor a child and give life (a Kingdom Issue?). Global Warming is a serious problem and it should play a factor in what we purchase as well. She was not being a “tight-wad” she was being a wise steward, one that sees the money she has been given not as her’s that God “blessed her” with, but for her to use wisely as God entrusted her with it. They didn’t need the SUV, so it wasn’t the best thing for them to do with their current finances.

I fear too often there are Christians who have these feelings and leaders, pastors, mentors discourage those God-given feelings in people and allow them to fall away from those convictions. I pray this was less true then I think it is.

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451 thoughts on “Why I Ditched Dave Ramsey”

  1. One thing with dave is you have to follow all his lessons in His FPU in order to fully understand what hes saying. Dave is very big on giving, like in ariahs response. Dave is just saying why live like an “unfaithful steward” when we should be faithful and responsible stewards. Look at the numbers, most people are far behind in debt, how do you think that effects the Church? and if no one puts a new plan in place for people to follow what will happen to the Church? I really believe dave is a blessing, Im very well versed in investments, real estate and money management – and I learned alot from dave, stuff I never knew! How much more effective would ministers and workers in the Church be if they werent carring a load of “debt” on their backs, Here are some numbers from daves program I find amazing: a person makes $40,000.00 a year for 37 years, lets say he’s 28yrs old. 37 years they will be 65. Now never give them a raise and have them invest 900/per month at 12.5% for the 37 years, pretty easy to do with no debts and no borrowing, the outcome would be a tax free retirement at over 42,000.00/ amonth, and its tax free because it was invested into a roth IRA. Who wouldnt want that for themselves. How much could you give to causes with that kind of money? How many people could you help? Dave is trying to get us positioned to do so.

    1. If he's so big on giving why does he charge $120 to people that are already in debt for what amounts a booklet that might cost 10 dollars to have printed up at your local copy shop, which surely costs him even less doing it wholesale. 10 dollars, if that, worth of minimally altered supplies from any office supply store and a bunch of software which could easily be distributed shareware for free with zero effort?

      Seriously? For what, the advice to get out of or stay out of debt? Are you for real? You can get that by consulting your Bible. Or for that matter the Talmud, the Quran, The Vedas texts, any number of Buddhist Sutras, an overwhelming majority of the ancient Greek philosophers for whom we have surviving manuscripts including all the ones most people have heard of, or just about any friend of theirs with any trace amount common sense or basic understanding of math and how compound interest works, granted such friends are rarer than they should be.

      Of course you also get the privilege to hear this guy (or possibly some representative for him?) talk about not getting into or getting out of debt. Seems to imply he is charging other people for this 'privilege', which leads me to wonder how much Jesus was charging for tickets to his sermons. Further any of the above sources will warn and explain the dangers of taking up the other side of usury arrangement, based on it's broader failure of the golden rule/categorical imperative criteria and dangers it poses to society as a whole as well, which Mr. Ramsey seems not only to fail to do but to advocate the opposite. It's not like it's a complicated realization, you can't advocate that people put money into accounts that earn interest and coherently also advocate that no one should be in debt, that's sheer contradictory nonsense, usury is a double edged sword.

      I'm pretty sure Christ said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" not "Invest it at 12.5% and then put it into a roth IRA to avoid paying taxes until you retire first and in the mean time take your family on vacations by finding economical travel deals and spend that extra $30 a month on gas for your new SUV then render what's left to Caesar a few decades later"

      And you're pretty easily amazed if some basic math in a hypothetical example which could just as easily been plagiarized from an 8th grade math text book problem is all it takes to amaze you.

      As for who wouldn't want that for themselves? People who have attained the basic level of spiritual understanding that it is wanting things for themselves instead of for others and for God is the root of everything that is flawed about humans and which separates the Earth from the Kingdom of Heaven, that's who.

      It is my deep suspicion that you are associated with Ramsey's racket in someway or another, if only in the rackets lowly 'scour the internet for criticism thereof and attempt to paint it in a positive light by using rambly hypocritical rhetoric' division.

      Dave Ramsey is a charlatan through and through, he spouts nonsense pandering to peoples egos and saying what they want to hear; sprinkling it with little bits of common sense and tries to pass the result of as some profound wisdom, he only uses religion as a further pandering device to better reach his target audience. It's a gimmick and nothing more.

      Christs message didn't consist of helping people by giving money to causes it consisted in helping people by giving yourself to them, to Him, to God. If you sincerely consider yourself to be a follower of the word of Christ and that what you speak of here has any place on the path to salvation I highly recommend you get some practice in passing camels through the eyes of needles as it will undoubtedly be needed.

    2. Just Real, You are completely right! You have to really hear "Everything" he has to say and not just parts here and there. You can't get everything off of his radio show to get a full understanding. His most important lesson of them all is the final one "Giving" My favorite story he told was about the couple that was almost done paying off debt and the first thing the kids wanted to get after being debt free was to buy a trampoline, and the parents wanted to adopt a child. The parents were talking to some strangers about it after they had learned about the common interest in Dave Ramsey. They had told the strangers about their excitement about adopting a child as soon as they are debt free, but sad for the kids because they weren't going to buy them the trampoline. A week later, the strangers had paid off the rest of that couples debt and had a trampoline delivered to their house, and they told the couple go adopt their kid! … Dave teaches that if you hold onto your money and don't let it go, then in return you don't let it in. And you know what, if someone needs to buy themselves something nice here and there along with giving to others, then I don't see anything wrong with it! Why should one give everything away. I have found in my life time that people that believe you should give it all away are usually the receivers!

    3. Of course, let me just mention that yielding 12.5% in the market every year is impossible. It has never historically been done…ever…regardless of what any one will tell you. 6-7% average growth is much more likely (remember, yielding 12.5% annually is much different than an average growth rate). Furthermore, not only is it a stretch to expect someone to save $10,800 annually when they only earn $40,000 GROSS, you cannot legally put that much money into a Roth IRA. A person can only put $5,000 annually into a Roth IRA.

      I do not say this to criticize or condemn, but to caution people to be very wary when listening to facts and figures by people.

      1. Very true Joe, although a nominal 10% market return is possible historically in equities,the inflation adjusted returnwould be about 6-7%. If anyone thinks 2.5% is small change then run the numbers. The other part of the equation is most investors buy high and sell low because they have little or no discipline and flee equities in down markets and fail to return until too late in the up part of the cycle. Ramsey gets the debt part right I believe, but is weak on investing and has a conflict of interest with recommending ELPs that charge commissions and in return pay him a monthly fee. Always educate yourself from a variety of sources and keep learning.

  2. Just Real,
    I wanted to take a quick minute to clarify with you what I meant. It’s not that I think Dave’s advice for saving and getting out of debt aren’t good, in fact I think they are great! He is about the only financial advisor I’ve heard that is so hardcore about getting out of debt, which I think is very “Biblical.”
    And it’s not that I don’t think he is an advocate of giving, I’m sure he is and has given a large amount of money.

    The problem I had is exactly the situation I mentioned above. I think it is very dangerous when a leader like Dave justifies things, especially when the person is leaning the other way.
    The lady who called in need to hear that her desire to save money and gas by her vehicle choice is God-given, that it is a kingdom issue and that she should be applauded for sticking with those convictions.

    1. I am sorry but your confused and making something it is not. If she saves more gas money she could give to the poor, animals, and environment. Look at it that way.

      1. But did she say that she wanted to save the environment? Did she say that the $30 she would save would go to charity if she didn't buy the SUV. Dave is giving FINANCIAL advice and financially it was only a $30 discussion.

    2. I think you're missing the point – most people that call in aren't in a place where they can give more than a regular tithe (which I have heard Dave promote numerous times). He is giving advice to people in specific situations. If you read his book, Total Money Makeover, his seventh baby-step (and the last one) is this (taken from his website):

      "Build wealth and give!

      It’s time to build wealth and give like never before. Leave an inheritance for future generations, and bless others now with your excess. It's really the only way to live!

      Golda Meir says, “You can’t shake hands with a clenched fist.” Vow to never hold your money so tightly that you never give any away. Hoarding money is not the way to wealth. Save for yourself, save for your family’s future, and be gracious enough to bless others. You can do all three at the same time."

      Don't make a complete decision as to the worth of advice and the advice-giver off of one, very narrow and specific, phone call.

  3. I think that all of you need to grow up, get a life, and get out of debt.

    I listen to Dave Ramsey and have read several of his books. Before, I was a skeptic as well, but I thought, “Well, I have been doing it my way all of this time. Perhaps, I should try something different.” As many of you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.

    Needless to say, two years later, I am $8,000 away from being debt free. Originally, I was nearly half a million dollars in debt and thinking I was really “doing well for myself.” Not only has my financial situation changed, I have a change of heart and mind about money.

    If you don’t believe what Dave teaches, then that is your prerogative, but until you become debt free and are sitting on half a million dollars in assets rather than half a million in liabilities, then I say, “Shut up.” If you come up with a better plan than Dave’s, I’d like to hear it.

    Until then, keep your pessimism and skepticism to yourself and let others who really need a Total Money Makeover continue forward.

    Blessings and Debt-free Riches,

    Janet

    1. Yeah, I can think of a "better plan." It is the way of all good religious leaders and Christ our Lord, God himself. Don't get yourself into that much debt and no one needs to own that much in assets. You would be wise to get rid of as much of it as possible for narrow is the way of peace and truth.

      Live sacrificially, forsake your things and consider nothing your own like the early church (Acts 2 & 4). You don't have to pay off things you don't own. Stop storing up for yourself treasures on earth because moths and fires and things will destroy but I assure treasure is better stored in heaven.

    2. Wait a minute Janet: Can we go back to your debt again? So you are saying that you somehow went from owing 500,000 to only owing 8,000 in two years? I am no mathematician but that means you somehow paid off 241,000 of debt per year for two years while still covering your basic living expenses. It seems that you know even more than Dave himself. Can you please enlighten me?

    1. you probably dont even know what this post is about…you see religion, bristle up, and make rude comments….get over yourself

  4. I don’t like Dave Ramseys stand on bankruptcy or divorce.
    Having read some articles on the net he seems to be against both of them. If he is such a Bible believer he should know there are times when the Bible states divorce is alright.
    As far as debts Deuteronomy 15:1-11 enacted what is escentially the first bankruptcy law.

    Ironic that a man who once filed bankruptcy himself is so against it. Read his interview from Failure magazine which you can find online.
    His comments about people who file are disgusting.
    Dave Ramsey is disgusting!

    If you want common sense advice about finances check out Harvard Professer Elizabeth Warrens book, ALL YOUR WORTH.
    Professor Warren’s plan is simple and easy to understand.
    She has compassion, smarts and realizes that bankruptcy is not the end of the world and there is no shame when a person NEEDS a fresh start.

    It is NOT a moral issue as Ramsey would like people to beleive.
    Check out:
    http://www.alperlaw.com/moral_issues.html

    1. Ramsey is not totally against bankruptcy but he is correct in saying that it should be avoided at all cost. As for himself, Ramsey went back and paid everyone he was indebted to even though his bankruptcy did not require that he do so… it's called CHARACTER! Try and get some… you could use it.

      1. And he's against bankruptcy when it's not necessary. He says all the time that you might be Forced into bankruptcy, but a lot of people want to file bankruptcy when that won't even fix their financial problem.

  5. May, again… check out the entire program and not just an excert from a mag. I guess we all know that editors NEVER spin articles, do they?! Come on people! CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT! You have to work hard to find the Truth these days.

    Bankruptcy:
    May, if you believe the Word, then you know that bankruptcy is the easy way out (Prov. 6) It is a better idea to do EVERYTHING in your power to avoid bankruptcy! Fresh start or not, it is YOUR debt! Who do you expect to pay!!?? I won’t trust anyone who says different!
    In the same area of the scripture that you quoted also talks about
    eating unclean animals & taking care of your local Levite.. I hope you are also following these principals or we couldn’t justify “remissing” your debt after 7 years. Yikes! Please don’t take Scripture out of context, quoted for your benefit. It is God’s Word so seek understanding in the fullest!

    Divorce:
    My family has been affected by divorce. There is NEVER a good time to divorce. If the LORD is LORD the He can handle relationship trials – ALL trials. It does say in scripture that if there is infidelity then one can be delivered from the relationship. But it doesn’t make this a good thing! It is a heart breaking, disgusting, gut wrenching thing! Just like bankruptcy!

    This is another context thing: when Dave says these things make him sick or disgusted, he means this in a compassionate way… he is literally sick, gut wrenchingly sick for that person that they are at that point in their life. Both are DIRE situations and can cause physical pain to those who have experienced it. He is not disgusted by them, but FOR them. There is a BIG BIG difference! You should really check him out a little deeper. I have even heard him say in certain situations that there is no other way out in their case, but then goes on to recommend the type of bankruptsy they should consider that would honor God. Cuz in Deut 15, it also says to not go into debt!

    Duet 15:6″For the LORD your God will bless you as He has promised you, and you will lend to many nations, but you will not borrow; and you will rule over many nations, but they will not rule over you.”
    So why should you need to file bankrupsty?
    Remission as refered to in Deut 15:1-2 is to be granted to your neighbor and your brother (kinsmen) so as it says in vs 3, foreign debt can be collected on. “foreign” back then was a different town… so make sure you borrow from your neighbor or brother and hold it seven years! Hold on, back to vs 6: don’t borrow!
    The Borrower is SLAVE to the LENDER!

    Dave’s system works & works well! It has been GREAT! We love it! Just do the research for yourself and try it for a few months. If you don’t like it, you can always go back to what you are doing now! HA!

    Yall have a great day!

    Bye for now,
    Ray
    PS Does anyone know of a good Hebrew I could buy? – Deut 15:12 – “If your kinsman, a Hebrew man or woman, is sold to you, then he shall serve you six years, but in the seventh year you shall set him free.”
    Maybe that was out of context?

  6. Those who listen to Dave Ramsey would be wise to listen to his disclaimer to seek the help of a professional financial advisor for their particular situation.
    Anyone who would take advice from a radio personality who listens to their probelm for a few minutes and comes up with a plan is not doiug what is in their best interest. Especially with a man who is so narrow minded like Ramsey.

    Please tell me, did Dave Ramsey repay his creditors after he got back on his feet after filing bankruptcy?
    He seems to like to boast about himself I think he would be proud to let others know that he repaid his creditors.
    I have never heard him mention if he did and asking him has not brought me any response.
    Hmmmm..I wonder why??

      1. Yep, he repaid his creditors. Guess your like everyone else. Form an opinon no matter how little you know about the subject.

  7. Those who listen to Dave Ramsey would be wise to listen to his disclaimer to seek the help of a professional financial advisor for their particular situation.
    Anyone who would take problem for a few minutes and comes up with a plan is not doiug what is in their best interest. Especially with a man who is so narrow minded like Ramsey.

    Please tell me, did Dave Ramsey repay his creditors after he got back on his feet after filing bankruptcy?
    He seems to like to boast about himself I think he would be proud to let others know that he repaid his creditors.
    I have never heard him mention if he did and asking him has not brought me any response.
    Hmmmm..I wonder why??

    1. Yes, he has spoken about paying back every penny. It actually was quite difficult to get the creditors to take his money once it had been cleared from the books. He's talked about having to call in favors from connections in high places to get them to actually take the money.

  8. Dear May, please press submit once upon creating a comment. It takes a while on your dial up aparently and when you “double & tripple click” it post 2 and 3 times!

    May, do you have a vandetta against Dave as a person? Do you tear down or hate? I tend to believe that Dave is a pretty humble guy. He sure does give away a lot of money that he never talks about. (I know some who have been on the receiving end).

    Why instead of addressing the above debate do you chose to attack a person? I believe that is a losing battle since we are ALL sinners, (Romans 3:23 & 6:23) May, Ray, & even Dave have made mistakes in life! However I wouldn’t want to hear a war story from someone who has never been in battle. I wouldn’t want to hear about how to recover from an accident from someone who has never been damanged. I woudln’t want to hear about how to become debt free from someone who has never been in debt or someone who has never recovered from that debt.

    May, if you listen to the last CD in his set of “Financial Peace University”, he tells his story. There he addresses all your concerns about him as a person. You can also call into his radio show and address your question.. unless they are covered up with those folks screaming “I’m Debt FREEEE!!!” You may have to wait a few minutes.

    Is this personal attack because there is no rebuttle to the above premisses? Am I right to assume that you have nothing to say in response that could further our disucssion/debate?

    Thanks for your wise contributions. They have been a great help in understanding where you are coming from on these issues.

    HAVE FUN!

  9. You sound like the pot calling the kettle black. TRY REREADING YOUR NOTE.

    You can’t answer my question if Ramsey repaid his creditors, can you?
    I have no interest in buying his books, cds or other items he is selling.
    You know nothing about my life and yet you make outragous statements about not wanting to hear from someone about this or that.

    Advising people to take the disclaimer that is read several times on Ramseys show is very good advice.
    I hope that more people do that for thier own sake.
    Sitting down with a professional and going over your financial situation is much wiser than making important decisions based on a brief conversation with someone on the radio.

    1. He DID repay his creditors. He says that he felt called to do that, but that he doesn't put that on anyone else who has filed.

      1. Hi Jennifer,
        We have done Financial Peace university and do recall hearing that he paid back all his creditors. My Aunt has declared bankruptcy twice and is of the mind that once filed and approved, there is no way to pay back creditors b/c the debt is gone, file gone, etc. How would one go about paying back debt after it has been absolved by bankruptcy? Does Dave Ramsey go into this detail at all to your knowledge.
        Thanks
        Kt

  10. I listened to Dave on XMRadio until the first time I heard his self-promotion for his seminars. I’m sure they offer good sound advice and all sounded good including the $29 registration fee. But THEN, his voice changed pitch and he got all excited telling us about the VIP and PLATINUM VIP packages (without mentioning cost) for the shows. Doesn’t paying more for a fancy title fly in the face of his entire money philosophy? Isn’t that exactly the type of thing he would say is unnecessary and urge his callers not to waste money on? The people in the general admission are going to get the exact same information at the exact same time as those who pay more for the “privilege” of sitting a few rows closer. The hypocrisy of this overwhelms me.

    Also, how much sense does it make to pay off a 4.5% mortgate and lose the mortage interest deduction, when the stock market has averaged over 10% for the past 50 years? None.

    1. Jason, I'm going to the seminar and we have PLATINUM tickets. We haven't been tricked, or fooled… This is a free country, if I wanted general seats we could have paid for that. I don't mind paying someone when they provide good service. IT"S OK JASON!

  11. Jason…. sup?
    Buddy, if you can’t afford the VIP, it isn’t for you! There are lots of privelages that come with it, besides sitting closer and if you are debt free, don’t have any payments, and are building wealth fast, a few extra bucks for some fun is nothing.
    PS Did you know that everyone self promotes… I believe they call it “advertising” but I’m not sure.

    4.5% Mortgage vs 10% Stock Market
    What you propose sounds great Jason…
    However, most people don’t have that extra $ to invest in that sweet 10% stock market due to “payments.” Every month.. payments to debt. Think of how fast you could build weatlh in that 10% stock market with NO PAYMENTS!
    If you do the Math, Jase, the smart way is to pay of that home ASAP and the INVEST INVEST INVEST… but not in individual stocks or a personal portfolio, check out some good growth stock mutual funds that have averaged over 12 – 18% LONG TERM!! (See these mutual funds have all kinds of NERDS that follow every industry every second of the day & every “major player.” They move out of that famous restuarant when they find out about the management quitting or bad food being shipped and then WE read about it in Wall-St. Journal about 2 days later when the stock has already dropped!) Those funds are the way to go! (but Diversify in them).

    Also, I don’t know about you Jason… if your house was paid off, would you borrow against it to invest in stocks? Most people with half a brain would say, “NO!” and if you don’t say know, your wife SHOULD! In effect, that is what you are doing when you don’t pay the thing off and you try to invest in stocks. Especially if that note is called by the bank and all your $ is tied up in the stock market… OUCH! Immediate loss of home & wealth! Do not pass go, do not collect $200!
    Do the math with the long term investment making 12% & you making that payment at 4.5% on that home for 30 years!
    Then, do the math with taking that $$ you would invest in 12%, paying off the home in a few years and investing ALL (12% investment + 4.5% payment) and you will be amazed at the income potential!!!
    Plus, YOU ARE DEBT FREE!

    But keep searching for the truth Jason. You are definately on the right track and your brain is thinking… But don’t get cought up in this Good Debt / Bad Debt game. Many many lose everything in that game!

    This is fun. I

  12. May, I agree. You should really seek professional help.
    The answer to your question is that you should listen to his entire story on the last cd of the FPU series. I think you will find it very helpful in seeking the truth before attacking a person.

    Jason…. sup?
    Buddy, if you can’t afford the VIP, it isn’t for you! There are lots of privelages that come with it, besides sitting closer and if you are debt free, don’t have any payments, and are building wealth fast, a few extra bucks for some fun is nothing.
    PS Did you know that everyone self promotes… I believe they call it “advertising” but I’m not sure.

    4.5% Mortgage vs 10% Stock Market
    What you propose sounds great Jason…
    However, most people don’t have that extra $ to invest in that sweet 10% stock market due to “payments.” Every month.. payments to debt. Think of how fast you could build weatlh in that 10% stock market with NO PAYMENTS!
    If you do the Math, Jase, the smart way is to pay of that home ASAP and the INVEST INVEST INVEST… but not in individual stocks or a personal portfolio, check out some good growth stock mutual funds that have averaged over 12 – 18% LONG TERM!! (See these mutual funds have all kinds of NERDS that follow every industry every second of the day & every “major player.” They move out of that famous restuarant when they find out about the management quitting or bad food being shipped and then WE read about it in Wall-St. Journal about 2 days later when the stock has already dropped!) Those funds are the way to go! (but Diversify in them).

    Also, I don’t know about you Jason… if your house was paid off, would you borrow against it to invest in stocks? Most people with half a brain would say, “NO!” and if you don’t say know, your wife SHOULD! In effect, that is what you are doing when you don’t pay the thing off and you try to invest in stocks. Especially if that note is called by the bank and all your $ is tied up in the stock market… OUCH! Immediate loss of home & wealth! Do not pass go, do not collect $200!
    Do the math with the long term investment making 12% & you making that payment at 4.5% on that home for 30 years!
    Then, do the math with taking that $$ you would invest in 12%, paying off the home in a few years and investing ALL (12% investment + 4.5% payment) and you will be amazed at the income potential!!!
    Plus, YOU ARE DEBT FREE!

    But keep searching for the truth Jason. You are definately on the right track and your brain is thinking… But don’t get cought up in this Good Debt / Bad Debt game. Many many lose everything in that game!

    This is fun. I

  13. I, too, am curious about Mr. Ramsey’s debts following his own personal bankruptcy. As he does admonish to those who have file bankruptcy to pay back the debtors, stating it is the right thing to do, I am sure he has paid all of his back in full, especially considering his great wealth which has been attained since.

    Does anyone know the details on this subject? I’ve never read his story about how he repaid HIS debts after bankruptcy.

    And—Ray—-in your “cutting” replies to May, for her “contributions”: I don’t see that you’ve offered much yourself towards the subject, except for your weak attempts at being superior in Biblical knowledge and computer skills. She is entitled to her opnion, as we all are, and you need to come to grips with that. It frightens me to read posts where someone spouts off scripture and in the same post commences to speak insulting remarks about others’computer skills, etc. Be careful throwing out scripture to back oneself up—even Satan knows the scriptures. It is very well to be able to quote scripture to back up your beliefs, but to live the scriptures is the true guarantee that the blessings promised will be granted. A person can quote them all day long (as I said, so can Satan), but they are to be LIVED, not quoted.
    I DO agree with you, Ray, on the subject of giving. I have read that Ramsey does give of his earnings, and I admire and respect him for that. I admire his attempts at facing the world debt problem, which is so critical. I’m glad he may be getting a prime time TV program on the subject. It’s an idea which is long overdue.

    But I still want to know, as May does, did HE repay all his debtors, as he instructs his “followers” to do? Why can’t anyone answer that? Since he is very clear about his feelings on the subject, I just think he owes it to the public to disclose those details, too.

    1. From what I understand Ramsey did pay back his creditors from his bankruptcy. See the wikipedia page for more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Ramsey.

      Part of the reason why he is so against bankruptcy is because he's been through it and he knows just how horrible of a life event it can be – it follows you around forever! Yes, it may not be on your credit report for more than a few years, but have you ever seen those questions on applications for things asking "have you ever filed for bankruptcy"?

      he doesn't want anyone else to have to go through it, especially if they don't have to. So many people have filed bankruptcy when they didn't need to, and then regretted it later.

      I've also taken the FPU course that Ramsey teaches. In it there is a huge emphasis on tithing and giving, so I can't understand why someone would get so upset about him telling someone to go for a car with slightly less gas mileage. is that really a huge "kingdom issue"? I can't see how it is.

  14. Carol,
    I doubt we will ever get the true answer if Dave Ramsey repaid his creditors after bankruptcy. But I think I know the answer!

    I used Dave Ramseys plan to become debt free. I FILED BANKRUPTCY! Just like he did!

    I didn’t use a radio personality to get advice from either. I contated two reputable credit counselors who advised me to file after reviewing my situation in detail.

    I have no regrets. Most financial experts say one can recover from bankruptcy is as little as three to four years as long as they pay thier essentials, create savings, and don’t go into debt again. Bankruptcy will stay on ones credit report for ten years like Ramsey says, but his dire warnings are silly. Most creditors will only look at the past few years. There are people who have filed BK and bought a house at a good interest rate in as little as four years.

    I am well on my way to recovery.

    Like Dave Ramsey, I do not use credit cards, even though these greedy companies are almost banging my door down offering me pre screened offers.

    Unlike Dave Ramsey, I feel the goverment needs to get involved to put a stop to unfair practices like universal default and put a cap on the loan shark interest fees that
    so many unsuspecting people get for even minor problems in their credit reports.

    Every reputable financial expert supports reforms in the credit card industry and knows that personal responsibility is not the whole picture. The government needs to pass laws to stop these loan sharks and protect the people who elect them.
    Those who lobby to protect the consumer are far outnumbered by the powerful credit card/banking lobby.
    It’s a sad situation for the people in this country when our politicans are bought by this very powerful lobby.
    And they are. That’s how the new bankruptcy law was passed.

    Have a good day.
    May

  15. I agree, May. I don’t think we’ll ever hear that part of the story.

    But I am wondering one thing, which is brought to my mind by the Biblical references used to support the error in filing for bankruptcy.

    Dave claims that it is not a Christian thing to do, to file bankruptcy. Which causes me to wonder. He filed. Making a mistake and using your experience to enlighten others is one thing, which I appreciate him for. But, since he’s chosen to use base his foundation for this feeling on Biblical instruction—I wonder that he never has followed that up with a statement reflecting that he perhaps was saved or found God AFTER his bankruptcy.

    Please don’t get me wrong. I am a Christian as well, and would never mock nor challenge anyone’s faith, or criticize them for Bible-based decisions. But, as a Christian, I would like to know the story behind this. He may very well have mentioned at some time that he found God AFTER filing. But, if he was a Christian at the time he filed, and continues to admonish those who file based on Bible facts, then he also needs to state that he DID INDEED sin also, and has since asked forgiveness from God. If he truly is a Christian (and I have no reason at all to doubt that), he needs to clarify that to his “followers”.

    And, again, don’t get me wrong. I would never criticize nor challenge a person’s feelings about what God wants them to do. But, as a Christian myself who has filed bankruptcy, I earnestly want to know the story behind all of this in order to take him seriously.
    –Carol

    1. Dave has never said that it's not the Christian thing to do, to file bankruptcy. He only says that you shouldn't file unless you're forced to. When someone calls in and wants to file because they have a small amount of debt and lost their job, it's stupid to file because the problem isn't the small amount of debt, it's the lack of income and filing bankruptcy won't pay your rent, utilities or food.

      And once again, if you take two seconds to look into it….he paid back all of his creditors and he NEVER tells anyone to pay back creditors after bankruptcy. He simply said he felt called to do so himself.

  16. Carol,
    There are alot of wolves in sheeps clothing, and alot of people who will wrap themself in religion to make money.

    I am totally convinced it was God himself who lead me to the decision to file bankruptcy.
    May

  17. So, yall… for some reason it wouldn’t let me post and then like may posted 3 times. Hm.

    Anyway, Carol, it was never my intent to “cut” May and I reread each post and didn’t see what you were talking about. I was honest in thanking her for her contributions. Please don’t read it as sarcasim. However, May, if it was taken as a cut, please forgive me as it was not my intent.
    I don’t hold superior computer skills as illustrated by the TRIPPLE POST that went though when this thing flagged my post. I was just simply trying to help because it is a common problem on these things with slower networks… or post that flag for spam as this one does.

    I don’t hold superior Bible skills, but it DRIVES ME NUTS when something is quoted out of context. I’m just searching for truth!

    May, I think we can both agree and Credit Card companies suck (as does bank bankruptcy), however your earlier post seemed to justify it and then also use Dave’s mistake to rationalize it. I was simply pointing that out and didn’t agree with your logic behind attack Dave as a perons. Carol makes a much more logical agruement and I can see where she is coming from. No vendeta, honestly trying to find the answers.

    I encourage both of you to try out Dave for a while. It has totally changed my financial situation! We’ll be debt free soon and then building wealth. Don’t get hung up in the small theological disagreements! Talk to him about it after you’ve made your millions. (Literally).

    Well, I have to go. This is most likely be my last post unless encourage to do otherwise. Have a great day.

  18. Bankruptcy does not suck as you say Ray.

    It is sometimes something people who are in debt need to consider.
    What is not logical is some people who I have read about who will follow Ramseys plan no matter what.

    Do you think it makes any sense when they deny themself or their family medical care because they are bound and determinded to get their debt paid off? I have read about people who are in that situation and still cling to the hope of Ramseys plan .
    If things are that bad that and a person can’t go to a doctor when they need to, maybe it is time to consider bankruptcy.
    But people who believe and cling to every word Ramsey says and seem to think he has the gospel truth about everything may be put off seeking help through bankruptcy .
    I could have respect for Ramsey if he would speak the truth about bankruptcy, but his interview in Failure magazine furthers the myth about people who file bankruptcy.
    There is a certain percentage who abused the system, but studies have shown most people file after all other options are closed to them. For Ramsey to question the integrity and morals of those who file is insulting. To say probably 80 percent who file really didn’t need to is
    stupid. He doesn’t know the details why everyone filed just like we don’t know the details why he filed and if he “really” needed to.
    Ramsey would benefit by reading books/ articles by Harvard Professor Elizabeth Warren. She makes much more sense and has true compassion for people who are struggling with debt.
    If a person can’t pay off debt in a timely manner then it is time to consider bankruptcy.. after all a person CAN repay their creditors when they get back on their feet.
    You won’t hear that message from Ramsey though!

    When push comes to shove a person always has to consider themself and their family first.
    May

  19. From what I understand of Dave Ramsey, his stance on bankruptcy is to avoid if at all possible. If you think about it, if it is possible to avoid bankruptcy, it is almost stealing from your creditors to file, because you are keeping them from collecting on money that is justly owed them. But as I understand it, Dave Ramsey supports filing for bankruptcy if that is the only option. If it can be avoided, he wants to avoid it strongly, but if it’s the only answer in that particular situation, then he understands and has adviced people through bankruptcy. Listening to his show a couple weeks ago, there was a person who was going to file bankruptcy because they just could not make all the payments and were totally overwhelmed and were resigned to lose their house through bankruptcy and just start over.

    Also, I think I’ve heard Dave talk about his bancruptcy experience and how that interacted with his Christian faith. As he explains it, at that time, he never considered his financials dealings from a spiritual or biblical perspective. He was a Christian, but was ignorant about what the Bible said about money and debt. After he lost everything and filed for bankruptcy, he started to look into it and see what the Bible had to say about it. That’s when he came to his beliefs that he holds now. I think there are things that all of us are ignorant about when it comes to what the Bible says, and so we can’t fault him too much for not knowing what the Bible said about it. That doesn’t mean that he wasn’t a Christian, just that he had room to grow and I think he’s grown since then in his learning.

  20. It all depends on ones circumstances as to whether a person who files bankruptcy has “stolen” from their creditors.
    With the loan shark fees many people have paid some of them have plodded along for years and years,paying the original balance not only once but many times plus paying tons of interest. My lawyer told me that and I think he has seen enough cases to know.

    Dave Ramsey refuses to say whether or not he repaid his creditors. If he feels so strongly that bankruptcy is a moral issue and questions the integrity of those who file, which he did in the Failure Magazine article, I think he has an obligation to repay his creditors he listed in bankruptcy and tell others that is what he did.
    He DOES want to be a good example doesn’t he? The creditors are still there and they are not going to refuse anyones payment .

    I question what he learned as far as compassion and understanding for others when he says the amount of shame a person feels depends on their integrity. Tell that to someone who filed because they lost their job, or got cancer, or their house floated out in the Gulf of Mexico during a hurricane.
    There are all sorts of reasons why a person files bankruptcy. Ramsey doesn’t know every reason. Saying probably 80 percent of people who file didn’t have to is just plain stupid and insulting. Is that being a good Christian?
    I wrote to Harvard Professor Elizabeth Warren with my thoughts about Dave Ramsey. Unlike Dave Ramsey who has never replied to my emails Professor Warren replied and told me she thought I hit the nail on the head.
    Those who follow Ramsey so religiously would do themself a favor to read some of Elizabeth Warrens books.
    May

  21. Hey May, I wanted to respond to one thing you said in your latest post. “Saying probably 80 percent of people who file didn’t have to is just plain stupid and insulting. Is that being a good Christian?” I think this is the second time I’ve read this in your posts and at first I wasn’t going to comment but since you said it again I’ll add my thoughts to it. Honestly, I have no idea if that 80 percent figure it way off or not. I just don’t have the knowledge to know. But Dave has seriously talked with thousands of people that are considering bankruptcy, whether in person or on his radio show. He may be totally wrong, but I just don’t have the knowledge, experience, or education to disagree with him. But I don’t think it’s right to call that “stupid and insulting” unless you have enough personal experience to disagree. I understand you went through a bankruptcy, and maybe you’re part of the 20 percent, but I haven’t even met a hundred people who have filed for bankruptcy. Do you have that kind of experience to not only disagree with him, but declare his statement so ridiculuous that it makes him “stupid and insulting.” It’s ironic that in the same breathe you call him insulting, you have insulted him. And lastly, I don’t think that a person’s faith should be questioned based on what percent of bankruptcies he believes could be avoided. It’s like questioning if someone could be a good Christian and speculate what percentage of people need to eat healthier.

  22. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12306509/site/newsweek/

    The above link is about the documentary Ramsey mentioned on his radio show MAXED OUT. He appeared in this documentary.
    He commented that he was all for personal responsibility. I think we are all for personal responsibility, but as this article shows, personal responsibilty is only part of the picture when it comes to debt.
    For Ramsey to be against the government getting involved to outlaw loan shark interest rates and this dirty trick called Universal Default is mind boggling.
    Every person fighting for consumer rights knows we need laws to stop these very large, powerful corporations from harming more people.
    It’s not enough just to say stop using credit cards!

  23. That is a really interesting article. Thank you May for posting it! Now I want to watch that movie, Maxed Out, but it’s not on Netflix so I don’t know where to get it.

  24. Zach,
    I am on an online BK group and I believe the notes that have been written there by people who filed bankruptcy.
    It was their only choice unless they choose sucicide and some people actually consider that. Some even do it.
    There are many different reasons why people had to file.

    I listened to Ramsey today. I guess the word stupid came to mind since I heard him repeat it so much.

    Another stupid thing I think Ramsey says is giving these dire warnings about filing bankruptcy. People do recover. Hey, Donald Trump, who by the way says he is a Christian has filed bankruptcy more than once! Does he look like he hasn’t recovered? Do a search on famous people who have filed bankruptcy and I am sure you will recognize many of the names. They recovered too! It’s not the end of the world like Ramsey seems to try and convey. Sometimes people need a fesh start!

    Ramsey just may be scaring away people who need the freah start that BK gives.
    You don’t have to be down to your last dime to be bankrupt. In the state I live in a person can have up to 5 grand in the bank. That 5 grand could go in a heartbeat too if a person had an accident and landed in the emergency room and had no insurance.

  25. You’re welcome Zach. Glad you checked out the link.
    I was furious about that comment about Citibank trolling parts of Miss and taking advantage of people. Citibank is evil in my opinion.
    I want to see it too or get the DVD. I wrote to the maker of the film and if I get info I will post it here.
    There is a book Maxed Out coming at the end of this year. Like many book authors there will probably be a tour and he’ll be on all sorts of talk show. I hope so. It’s an important topic.
    Maybe it will get more people to tell credit card co’s to go take a hike.

    Signing off the computer for the night,
    May
    PS pass that link around please!

  26. May, you don’t like Dave Ramsey because you feel that his saying bankruptcy is bad reflects poorly on you having filed for bankruptcy so you attack him.

    That’s silly.

    Dave filed for bankruptcy. He tithed all the way through during that. And you are trying to say he’s not christian. Well folks, most Christians don’t tithe when they are wealthy, let alone going broke. How can I say most? Look around at churches and how much of the Lords kingdom has been built.

    I know folks who filed for bankruptcy, right after maxing out their cards and doing pay day loans. Is that everbody? No, but it is everybody I’ve ever known who filed for bankruptcy.

    Does that mean you are that way May? No!!

    Is ramsey saying every person filing bankruptcy is a fraud? No! But for some reason you think you are in the 80% he was talking about. Until Ramsey tells you that you are in that 80%, he didn’t say you. You take a general statement made by Ramsey to apply to you specifically in the negative and then you turn around and specifically attack negatively.

    As for the Scripture references for bankruptcy, I believe those were to the creditor forgiving the debt. There was nothing for the debtor to say to the creditor ‘tough donuts’. The creditor was to forgive, but it wasn’t by the force of the debtor. And that’s a creditor who was a Jewish believer. I think you’ll find in large multi-national banks, that not all the officers study scripture, and the scriptures they study might not be from the Bible.

    Often the job loss may be the last straw, but it wasn’t the preceding 99. If someone has two car payments,a house payment, and three credit card payments, how easy is it for a bump in the road to destroy? Okay, same bump in the road, but only a house payment? Okay, same bump, no payments?

    As for the original blogger… SUV versus van. It’s not a kingdom issue no matter how you try to frame it. I seem to recall the caller and I don’t remember a mention of receiving any devine message on staying with the van. Can there be a human opinion that doesn’t need to be inspired by God? Well, I’m not sure, but I seem to recall a passage in the new testament written by Paul where he speaks as a regular Joe and not as a prophet (it wasn’t doctrine, didn’t need to be inspired).

    If you want to be strict, then everytime the hand offends thee, it should be cut off, right? Well, everytime you promise away future income (debt) that could instead be used to build the kingdom of God in the world, that hand should get tossed and we should see a lot of people that can’t scratch their nose.

    Where there is no margin, there’s no ministry. If you see someone driving an SUV and you think they are wrong for doing so, you haven’t heard the scripture about removing the plank from your own eye before looking at the splinter in others. Ramsey is telling folks to tithe (actually tithe, 10% of their income, no matter what). How many folks on Radio or TV that aren’t the ones trying to receive said tithe say that? And even the folks who are trying to receive the tithe often aren’t enforcing it being a tenth (don’t want to offend those sending in cash).

    I’ve read the old and new testament and the one thing I came away with is that man is imperfect, no acts of our own can save us (but we are still responsible for doing them, faith without works is dead, and does not result in everlasting life with our Father in Heaven), that Jesus died for our sins, and THE kingdom issue is knowing that fact and doing something positive with that knowledge.

    Dave once said (repeating somebody else’s quote) that the best we will ever do here on earth is to God the equivalent to a child’s ‘painting’ on a parent’s refrigerator. We are all unprofitable servants and have been given much. The question is what are we doing to multiply the talents the Lord has given us? I think Ramsey has an answer to that question if our Saviour asked him.

    May, If you want to hang your opinion on whether Ramsey ever paid off all his debtors, that your prerogative, but..

    Have you apologized to everyone you’ve ever been rude to?
    Do you have racca against your brother?
    Did you leave your offerings until you corrected it?
    Have you ever asked Dave for forgiveness for making such demands and public statements about him when he has said absolutely naught about you?

    No? Then perhaps you don’t want to be so strict in your judging, because if the same is to be applied to you, you won’t fare very well. Don’t get me wrong, neither would I. Judge not lest ye be judged. That’s in there too.

    Oh, and on divorce, the Messiah stated that it was do to the heardness of their hearts that it was allowed. I don’t think Jesus was in favor of divorces and neither is Ramsey. That seems sound. Neither said it can never be done, and truly it’s only important on what Christ said.

    You seem to have guilt in your heart (other wise you wouldn’t apply the 80% to yourself instead of applying the other 20%). Get down on your knees and pray. If that doesn’t work, read scripture and repeat. If you did everything you could, you should be firm in that knowledge and you should be applying the 20% that Dave said do need bankruptcy to yourself.

    This post is already to long. For he that hath ears, let him hear. Christ’s gentle way of saying being open minded.

  27. I agree with Wayne.
    Awesome.

    PS May, I check out your link: http://blog.iamnotashamed.net/2006/04/05/why-i-ditched-dave-ramsey/#comments
    That advice sux… Just so you know.

    Here is a sample of one of the posts and the “advice” that May suggest we all take.

    “If people would like to see a hard example of what I’m talking about – probably the most common example of bad advice is how these gurus discuss credit card use. These gurus tell people to avoid credit cards like the plague, even recommending debit cards over credit cards….
    However, if they were REALLY giving out sound financial advice, they would not neglect to mention that credit cards are the absolute BEST way to purchase items. All you need is ths discipline to not charge what you cant afford and pay your bills in full.”

    Right. All you need is “discipline.” I think this person’s last name is Visa! Maybe May’s full name is May Ster Card???? Do we have one of “them” in our midst!?!?! Dun, Dun, DUUUUUN!!!!

    Later all,
    Ray

  28. :
    Bankruptcy should be considered in some circumstances and Ramsey has a closed mind to never recommend it to anyone on his show. It’s obvious listening to his callers that some should at least consider it.
    I certainly hope they listen to his disclaimer and consult with a professional about their specific situation instead of listening to a man on the radio who spends less than five minutes with them.
    If Ramsey hadn’t made his insulting comments in his Failure Magazine article I would not question him. Of course I have stopped asking, because he refuses to answer.
    I notice in his other interviews he chooses his words very carefully when he is asked about his own debt problems almost twenty years ago. He never mentions the word bankruptcy..

    I could have more respect for him if he would be upfront and admit he filed bankruptcy and give some details about it. Like answer the question if he repaid his dreditors after he got back on his feet.

    I have no guilt or shame filing bankruptcy. I was bankrupt long before I filed and it was the best decision for me.

    I wrote to Harvard Professor Elizabth Warren who I think is much more knowledgable than Ramsey.
    I told her I though Ramsey was delaying the inevitible for many of his callers when he refuses to tell them to consider bankruptcy whn it is painfully obvious they could
    benefit from a fresh start. She agreed with me.
    Anyone can repay creditors after they get back on their feet. Even Ramsey!

    1. May Dave does indeed let people know when they SHOULD file for bankruptcy.  Also he touches on another subject.  Removing the debt via Bankruptcy cures only the symptom not the underlying issues that got the person to that point.  Paying off the debt the hard way cures for the long term.  My brother is in the middle of filing for the second time.  I guess his first time didn’t help much.

  29. “If Ramsey hadn’t made his insulting comments in his Failure Magazine article I would not question him.”

    Okay, how are the comments insulting to you unless you infer that you are in the 80%?? Did he mention you by name? No, he didn’t. YOu have however made insulting comments about him by name.

    “He never mentions the word bankruptcy..”

    Let’s see. He wrote about it in his first, second, and third books. He says on the radio he has a PHD in d-u-m-b. He’s told multiple callers how he had a one million dollar networth but he had 4 million dollars of real estate and the new owner of the bank called in his notes. I can about repeat the story accurately from memory from listening to his radio show.

    He talked about his stupid pride and trying to keep a jacquar car when his family was broke. He talked about his friend co-signing for said car and the bank calling his friend. He talked about selling it just before it was repo’d and how that was insane.

    If the interviews you read don’t have it in it, oh well. Millions of people who have listened to his show have heard him state it numerous times. They’ve also heard him talk to people who had already filed bankruptcy and him give them counsel.

    “I have no guilt or shame filing bankruptcy.”

    False as fact. If you didn’t feel bad, you wouldn’t be trying to fry Ramsey and you wouldn’t infer that you were in the 80% Ramsey stated didn’t need to file bankruptcy. You were insulted. It’s hard to be insulted if you don’t feel something applies to you.

    “I wrote to Harvard Professor Elizabth Warren who I think is much more knowledgable than Ramsey.”

    That’s great, and what, the third time you mentioned her?

    Let’s see, if we are going to do the numbers thing… 280 stations across the country carry his show. Millions of listeners. CBS pilot for a possible TV show. Best selling books (plural). I think more than a few folks agree with Ramsey. I’m sure we could find somebody who is a professor at some grand college as well.

    You don’t have ears and you don’t wish to hear. You are stuck and the reason you are stuck on this is because you haven’t forgiven yourself for filing bankruptcy. If you didn’t feel/think that you were in the 80%, the statement wouldn’t have had any effect on you.

    It’s like the statement ‘some folks really smell’. Do you immediately jump to the conclusion that means you? Most folks who don’t smell don’t feel that they are in that group.

    You don’t have ears and you refuse to hear, so last thing I’m typing on it.

  30. Ray, I’m so happy to hear about your sucess with your debts. I would love it if you would share some details about how you/ve made such phenonemal progress so quickly! If you don’t mind, please give us some details. I’m sure it would be very encouraging for many.

    I’ve been reading the past posts since our last “round”, and I just don’t get the impression that some are getting, that May feels feels guilty about her bankruptcy. I don’t get that impression at all. For people like me, who have file bankruptcy (due to much more of a catastrophe than a “bump” in the road!), there is no reason to feel guilt.

    I may be wrong, but I feel like May is merely disappointed and disallusioned by Dave Ramsey, because of his evasiveness about his bankruptcy. And I am, too. And don’t tell me it doesn’t matter. It does. For one thing, I read his latest column in “Quick and Simple” magazine. In it, he goes so far as to say that he and his wife, when they hit rock bottom, sold their house to pay off their debts. Where on earth did that new story come from? You can read it for yourself. So now he’s gone from the evasivesness about his situation, to a completely new history that says he DID pay off his debts, and —– what about the bankruptcy?

    However—–I would be quick to change my opinion of his “teachings” if I could read somewhere, in black and white, what ACTUIALLY happened in his past and what he ACTUALLY did to recover. Because, yes, it does matter. And anybody who considers his “methods” has the right to know also. One other reason it matters is because I heard him advise that debts should be repaid to the debtors after a bankrupcty—-but noone has EVER heard if he has done so or not. Not that he is either a financial expert nor a Biblical one—–but just so that I could trust that he has practiced what he has “preached”.

    And, Ray—–it is so funny that you spout scriptures right and left, yet have the nastiest, most hateful way of talking, especially to May. I haven’t seen that she’s been “mocking” or insulting you, as you have to her. There’s no call for that. You need to focus less on the scriptures about debts and study more on how to act. There’s no need for such behaviour. If I was going to decide to take up Dave’s methods, I’d be turned off by reading you and never consider his plan at all.
    Your good ideas and thoughts are washed out by your demeaning talk.

  31. >there is no reason to feel guilt.

    I agree! If you did what you could with what you had and you still couldn’t do it, then there’s no reason to feel guilty. I’m not saying May should feel guilty, I’m stating that based on taking the general remarks Ramsey made about bankruptcy personally, and immediately assuming they applied to herself, that *She* feels guilty. i’m not saying she should. i’m saying that guilt feeling is the reason for the attack on Ramsey.

    I was once at a Christmas party talking with my aunt about schizophrenia and paranoia. We were talking generally and another relative heard us speaking about paranoia and blurted “I’M NOT PARANOID”. This is kind of similar.

    >Where on earth did that new story come from?

    New story??? He’s stated numerous times that he and his wife, along with a toddler and infant were living in a rental because they needed the money from his home to pay off creditors. He sold everything in sight, including his home, tithed the entire time, and still want bankrupt. It’s not a new story (at least not to somebody who has read his books or listened to the show for a few months).

    I’m not a Ramsey zealot. I do think what he teaches is sound. I do think he is a christian. I think he is talking about two things the public doesn’t generally want to talk about… Debt, and the fact that we consume to fill the whole better filled by the love of Christ and his work.

    If you dislike folks because what they say is hurtful, then you have to dislike just about every prophet Heavenly Father has ever sent us.

    Old testament (paraphrased a little becasue I’m not near a Bible. “Even an ass knows its master, but Israel does not know its God” Ouch! Christ speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew chapter 23 (could be 25, pretty sure it’s 23) about how they make the outside of the cup, but the inside… you get the picture.

    I’m not saying anyone’s aim should be hurtful. I don’t think Ramsey was trying to offend May (unless he really did mention by name), but he was trying to get the point across that lots of people abuse the system. If May isn’t one of those folks, I don’t know why she feels compelled to attack the person who made the statement about 80% of the people who aren’t like May.

  32. Carol Said:

    Ray, I’m so happy to hear about your sucess with your debts. I would love it if you would share some details about how you/ve made such phenonemal progress so quickly! If you don’t mind, please give us some details. I’m sure it would be very encouraging for many.

    Then she said:

    And, Ray—–it is so funny that you spout scriptures right and left, yet have the nastiest, most hateful way of talking, especially to May. I haven’t seen that she’s been “mocking” or insulting you, as you have to her. There’s no call for that. You need to focus less on the scriptures about debts and study more on how to act. There’s no need for such behaviour. If I was going to decide to take up Dave’s methods, I’d be turned off by reading you and never consider his plan at all.
    Your good ideas and thoughts are washed out by your demeaning talk.

    HOLY CRAP!
    Is someone bipolar? Was this written by the same person? Multiple Personalities?
    Carol, I guess most of it depends on the attitude that comes through the writing in your interpretation of what I said. I can tell you that is wasn’t vindictive, but it was a slight rebuke and correction and then turned to teaching. (Recognize the passage???) Hey, maybe it was a bit catty, but I have already apologized to May, so we’re good. Especially since she is my sister, I know she has forgiven me. Since you read through all the post, I’m sure you saw that as well as me already addressing the issue of context and understanding.

    So Carol, do you want to know what we have done? Or is it all bull hocky because my “ideas and thoughts are washed out by [my] demeaning talk”??

    I too thought May seemed very guilty or like she had something to prove. I agree with Wayne. I think he is right on. If she is in the 80% then uh oh! However, if she is a 20%, Ok. But for most people, Bankruptsy is not a good option because you CAN avoid it with hard work. (I’m living proof of that.) I’m glad the government made this a tougher option in recent legislation. Too many lawyers make too much $$ off of it and too many lazy folks take advantage of it.

    Carol Said:
    You need to focus less on the scriptures about debts and study more on how to act.

    That is kinda catty, but hey, I’ll keep that tip in mind! Thanks for pretending that you know me so well from this post about FINANCE & DEBT! You know, I bet even Jesus should have done that… oh wait, more than 280 pieces of scripture refer to finance… crap. Maybe we should find a better Bible, because mine mentions Debt & Finance MORE than LOVE. DANG IT! There I go with the “scriptures” again. We should just leave them out of discussion all together, right Carol? Because if you mention Scripture in context, folks here wont like you because, sometimes, the truth isn’t very fun.

    Well, big C, let me know if you want to hear about us, kindly please. Also, this post is full of satire. Just keep that in mind as you read.

    PS: 3% of Evangelical Christians give $ to the Church. 97% do not. I’m not talking about an amount or %. The stat is for any $$ at ALL!

    Good day,
    Ray
    “If I had a dime for every time that I can rhyme … I’d be debt free, Yippi!”

  33. Point made, Ray. I LOVE the “Big C”—-although I.m sure it was meant to be insulting, I thought it was so cute! It’s funny how God turned that around and—instead of my being insulted—-it just made me understand you better and try to see things from your perspective. (Although I don’t know where the “bipolar” part comes from—-referring to me? Hmmm. Oh, well—–doesn’t matter).

    In all honesty—I DO see where you’re coming from. And you’re 100% right in that it’s hard—very hard—-to interpret a person’s thoughts in writing. I shouldn’t have done so. If I were to hear you say the same things in person, I’m sure I’d have a totally different perspective. I stand corrected.

    I have to say, though——I don’t know if I’m the one who’s coming off as “not liking” Dave Ramsey. I don’t believe I’ve ever implied that at all. In fact, let me say I admire him taking on the role against debt and using his name to bring attention of the problem to the public like he has. I think his new show will be a “reality” show that has long been overdue—-a hi-lite on debt and it’s sweeping proportions. I’m very exited about that. I’ve never said at any point that I doubted his Chrisitanity. Quite the contrary. If indeed he is a Christian (only God knows for sure), he will be bringing glory to God through his ministry , and I have to be proud of him for that. I’m so proud that he is not ashamed to say that he is a Christian. And I’m proud that the fact that he is has not thwarted his efforts, as it seems to do sometimes in the world.

    And—–what have I said that implies I can’t take the “truth”? What truth am I not taking or not able to handle? I do tithe at my church, for that matter, as well as giving on top of that in other areas where there is a need. Not because anybody has told me to—but because I love Christ and it just is my own way of giving to Him. Dave Ramsey has said nothing that I don’t believe or anything that I cringe about. He, actually, has said nothing new that other financial advisors have not said. It’s all true, and I’ve never had any difficulty accepting any of it.

    RAY—-thank you for pointing out the explanation about his debts and selling his house. I had never heard him mention that in the same context, and did not know. I tried to order a copy of his book, but the order was cancelled because the seller really did not have it in stock—-I’ve been waiting to get a copy so I CAN learn more.

    And—Big Ray—–(LOL)——-I really WOULD like to know more about your debt progress. I am indeed NOT being sarcastic. Truly—from my heart—-I think it would be an inspiration and wish that you would share it. I did not intend to sound sarcastic about that. It’s a wonderful accomplishment and you should be proud of it, as you are. Really.
    Peace? Please?

  34. Carol Said:
    “I LOVE the “Big C”—-although I.m sure it was meant to be insulting, I thought it was so cute!”

    Uh, it Was NOT meant to be insulting. My apologies if you are large. LOL. I mearly refer to Big C because that is what most people think when they see the word “Carol” – A large C with the cowering “arol”

    Anyway, My wife and I have taken, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th jobs!
    There are about 3 hours in a day that I am not working. I’m not kidding. But this is OK with us because we understand that for a short time, we will have to work our TAILS off! Also, this weekend, we are having a massive mult-family yard sale – selling everything we can get rid of that isn’t saving us $$.

    Since my wife teaches, she has the summer off. This means that she can be a nanny while I’m at work and then at night, we are both Servers at a local resturant. We pull in about 80 or so bucks working 4 hours there ($10 an hour) and then I get back to my other 2 jobs in real estate photography free lance. Durring the day, I’m a tech guy. On the weekends, we pull double shifts at which ever job will let us.
    Listen, we don’t make much money. Before our Server Jobs, Nany Jobs, and Side Jobs, our income was less than our LIVING expenses! We had to NOT PAY many a minimum payments. But then, one night we were sitting at home and I mentioned, “What if, for a short time, we REALLY got after our debt and did this Dave Ramsey thing.” After much discussion and prayer we decided to stick the petal to the metal. We got a budget together (took 3 months to figure out). We put $1,000 in the bank to take care of Murphy’s Law (that took about a month or 2). Then her car broke down, we had to get repairs… all sorts of BAD THINGS happenend. We believe “something” was trying to keep us from this. However, God is good and we came out of all this fairly well.
    So then we pursued the extra jobs and it has been non-stop! I got home last night at 12:30 AM and was working until about 1:30 a.m. This morning, I woke up about 5:30 a.m. and after a little time for myself & the Lord, I went to work (where I am now). Coffee is my best friend! Right now, That is LIFE, becaue WE HAVE DEBT TO PAY OFF and we REFUSE to take an easy way out. We would have qualified for Bankruptsy. We rent, we own both cars… we just didn’t have the Money to PAY. The Lord has provided HARD JOBS to pay back the debt and this debt is something that I will never have again and will never forget! My wfie and I have grown much closer together through all of this and have been completely humbled. We still keep one night a week free as “date night.” There is a little mexican place close to our house that we always go to, because that is all we are willing to spend. We both eat well for about $10. $15 if we get our favorite waitress who takes incredible care of us.

    When I hear about Bankruptsy, I cring. It really isn’t the only way, but it is most often the easy way. If we have 12 more months like this past one, we will be debt free. I know that hard times are coming when I have a career change and have my real estate license, so we are gearing up for that this fall. It isn’t going to be easy, but we will completely debt free sometime next summer. We will have 0 payments! When we first started Dave’s system, we had about $1,000 a month in minimum payments. Now, they total about $700. So we have an “extra $300, to add to our debt snowball. This stuff works yall. Just try it. Who cares if Dave paid back creditors. You can. Who cares if Dave is always right – (he isn’t, he is human). You can still be Debt Free with out bankruptsy!
    Just give it a whirl.

    PS. My wife and I have noticed an interesting corolation to our Tithes & Offerings and our income. Very Incredible what the Lord does there. Last week, we wrote the largest tithe check of our lives. We wrote PRAISE THE LORD in the memo because he allowed us to earn so much $ that WEEK! To some people this check was “chump change” but to us, it was a MIRACLE to be able to give that much. I’m not bragging here. I’m boasting on what Christ has done for us! However, it was still a little tough. We both looked at each other, knowing that the other was thinking about how much debt the check would pay off, but we both knew that we would have NOTHING if it wasn’t for his provision, so we gave and gave cheerfully! Hilariously as it is in the Greek.

    Have a good’n,
    -Ray

  35. The new bankrupty bill was passed into law because the powerful CC/banking industry lobbied for it for years.
    They whined and complained to Congress how they were losing money from people filing bankrupty. Yet, they contined to offer credit to people who they knew were high risk. They continue to send prescreened offers to those even after they have filed bankruptcy. I know that is a fact, because I receive offers all the time.

    The CC/banking industry got a lot of support from spinless congressmen and women from both parties who depend on these powerful corporations to donate money for their elections.
    Everyone who knows the facts knows this is the truth.

  36. Ray, I am SO truly proud of you and your wife. Thanks so much for sharing like you did. You have worked SO hard and been so dedicated, and it is paying off. You really have something to look forward to when the debts are behind you. It’s truly an inspiration to read your experience.

    There is a book out (you may already have it or have heard of it), called “The Blessed Life” (it’s about tighing and giving—can’t think of the author’s name right off hand)—but your account of the largest tithe you’d mae reminded me of it. If you haven’t read it, you would really enjoy it. You will be so blessed that you’ve givenin faith like that—-I know that for a fact, from experience. Your faith will see you to the end of this journey, and that is so exciting!

    Thanks for sharing so much. It’s encouraged me to be more serious about looking for a part time job. I make a very decent salary for my area of town. But I’m 53, and don’t want to head into retirement empty-handed. I want to pay off my car—-I’m so sick of car notes, but I drive quite a distance to work, so I need to keep the car—but I’m determined to pay it off early. A freight company near my job hires part time people to do data entry from 5:30 to 9:00 at night, which would be perfect for me, as get off work at 4:00. I’ve procrastinated about calling them, but your experience was good encouragement to go ahead and do it.

    Again, thanks so much for sharing that. And keep up the good work and faith—-you’re on the right track! I wish you (sincerely, I do!) the very best blessings on this journey.

  37. “The CC/banking industry got a lot of support from spinless congressmen and women from both parties who depend on these powerful corporations to donate money for their elections.
    Everyone who knows the facts knows this is the truth.”

    Actually, if you dig for it, you’ll find a video clip of Dave Ramsey saying the only good part of the law is the counseling part. He said even the Republicans whimped out and and it was him and Ted Kennedy fighting for the consumer… who would have thunk it?

    It was at http://treyjackson.typepad.com/junction/files/ramsey.wmv but doesn’t look like it’s there any more.

    Any way, Ramsey agrees that the new law was basically created by the creditors.

    Glad we cleared up the house story!

  38. I wonder if you aren’t pointing to deeper issues than the goodness of her being a tight-wad. Because it seems like her concern was not do I drive the mini van so that I can have 30 extra bucks a month to help others or do I spend it on gas for an suv. It would seem like the real decision was do I keep 30 extra bucks a month to spend on whatever I want beside gas or spend it on gas for an suv.

    So it would seem the issue is actually deeper than do I buy a mini van or suv. The issue is how do I live responsibly in the kingdom and how does that inform what I drive. (This is precisely what you were trying to point out, I know I’m not saying something you didn’t already know.)

    Thanks for the post.

  39. This is killing me that people keep on thinking this is a kingdom issue.

    Okay, again, Bible, parable of the prodigal son.

    When the prodigal son came back, they threw a party, right?

    They did *NOT* say ‘welcome back, we aren’t killing any firstlings because that wouldn’t be prudent and it would be better if you ate shoe leather so we can hack the calf in halve and feed 12 starving families’.

    or maybe I missed it?

    Anybody who thinks the bible says you should be broke is reading something that isn’t there. I’m not saying their aren’t wise and unwise decisions to make with money and I wouldn’t want judgement day to come and not be a tithe payer (when I know about the law of tithing) and I wouldn’t want judgement day to come and have never given more than ‘just’ a tithe (though if the entire Christian world did nothing more than that, heaven would be on Earth right now), but I don’t think our Father in Heaven who loves us is going to cast us to outer darkness for driving an SUV instead of a minivan.

    And anybody who thinks otherwise has a lot of scriptural reference they need to be making to support such an argument.

    Heck, unless everybody is posting from a free Internet terminal in a library, resources are being ‘wasted’ on computers, Internet connecitivity, etc. And even if you are typing from a free Internet kiosk, time is being wasted on this thread instead of spending it helping out the sick, poor, etc. Heck, the blogger himself should (under his own logic) criticize himself for wasting the God given resource of time in listening to Ramsey or him posting to the blog, let alone the commodity item of gas (you can buy gas, try buying back the last five minutes).

    Everyone, stop it with the holier than thou. I’m not holier, and if you think you are, then you *definitely* are not. Christ didn’t rip into to many folks (he hung out with sinners, tax collectors, and all the pariah of society), but he did rip into the holier than thou crowd pretty harshly.

  40. May,

    Dave Ramsey has addressed the issue of repaying his creditors. Both in his books, Financial Peace Revisited, Total Money Makeover, as well as in his seminar, I have heard him say that he and his wife totaled up the amount of money they had each month, and went down their list, paying as many bills as they could until they ran out of money. At that point they would draw a line, and anyone under the line would not get paid that month. As the creditors would call, they would tell them that their company was “below the line” and when they’d paid off other debts the company would be paid. He goes on to say that one by one they DID pay off all of their debts. Secondly, filing bankruptcy IS a moral issue because you have made a promise to a company that you will pay back that which you have borrowed from them according to THEIR terms. I know that many people get caught up in debt and feel that there is no alternative but to file bankruptcy, but the truth is that when you sign your name on the dotted line, you have GUARANTEED that company or business that, on your character and good name, you will pay back whatever you have received from them. To file bankruptcy to get a fresh start by having debts removed is not only dishonest, but logically it is also legalized theft. Who cares if it’s a multi-billion dollar corporation? Who cares if “they won’t miss it” or if “they’ll make it back off of someone else”? If you really thought they were that shady, you shouldn’t have done business with them in the first place. Regardless of who it is that you’ve stolen from (an individual or a big business), if you say you’re going to do something, you had darn-well better do it. If you promise to repay debts, you’d better do it, otherwise you are both a thief and a liar. What ever happened to the days when someone’s word and promise actually meant something? I’ve known people who racked up foreclosures, defaulted student loans, and unpaid credit cards. Those same people one day woke up and decided that their credit, and good name, was in the toilet because, for so long, they just didn’t care. They wouldn’t accept bankruptcy as an option because they took RESPONSIBILITY for their BAD money management via living beyond their means. They did what they had to do, they worked their butts off, they did without extras, and they paid off every bad deal one by one until their credit was restored. That’s the way it should be, not that people flush money down the camode on bad money management, but that they do what they promise to do no matter what it takes, not because those evil creditors have earned it, but because it is OUR obligation to do mean what we say. It’s a lost art, something that is rarely spoken of anymore-it’s called integrity. I don’t know what your beef with Dave Ramsey is (and your certainly entitled to your own opinion), but is it really worth over a month of hate-Dave responses to other’s comments? In the time you’ve spent conjuring up your “hate-Dave” rhetoric, you could have gotten a part-time job delivering pizzas and newspapers, paid off your debts, and invested $3,000 in Roth IRAs or a diversified portfolio of mutual funds (that’s a joke).

  41. I have know 7 people that have filed a total of 9 bankruptcies. Not 1 of the BKs was necessary, in fact every one was due to laziness, greed and mismanagement of funds. I believe that there are circumstances that warrant a BK, I’ve just never seen one personally. Following Dave’s advice I am out of debt, at peace and can survive the financial effects of a layoff, broken leg, tree thru the roof….etc. If you choose to disregard Dave’s message, that is certainly your choice, but you cannot deny that thousands of people have made their own lives better thanks to his advice.

  42. I’m going to have to read his books! For one thing, he DID file bankruptcy. Which would mean creditors would not have been calling, as that would be the law. So now I’m curious about these facts. It is against the law for creditors to call afer bankruptcy has been filed, so the re-payment you have mentioned must have been done previous to his bankruptcy. I’m only questioning from a standpoint of confusion now—–why did he file (which he DID) if he had paid them all off? And, like I said, the creditors would not have been contacting him after his filing.

    I’m not against Dave Ramsey myself. But his plan is not an original plan at all—in fact, his style of budgeting has been around since before he was born—in fact, probably since before his parents were born. My parents and their parents used the envelope system to pay bills and manage their money. “His” debt snowballing is an age-old practice which many of the credit counseling services were doing years before anybody had ever heard of Dave Ramsey. But I do admire that he does implement and advise (and makes quite a financial gain from) an old-fashioned, tried-and-true debt management program that is older than the hills.

    I also was impressed by his latest column in the “Quick and Simple” magazine, in which he addresses bankruptcy. He only refers to it as something like divorce, stating that it is something nobody wants to have to do, and should try to avoid. He goes on to say it is not the end of the world, and that there is life post-bankrupcty. He is very sympathetic in this column, much UNLIKE his fans would have one believe. Turns out, he seemed to be much more open-minded than his “fans” seem to be. He does not have the arrogance that so many of his “fans” have, nor the holier-than-thou attitude where everybody’s life is put into one cookie-cutter world, and everyone’s life is JUDGED by their narrow-minded views on life and its circumstances.

    I sound like I’m against him, and I’m truly not. I have nothing against him simply because there is some question in my mind regarding the true facts of his bankruptcy. It is just curiosity.

    But for all you who have judged those who have filed bankruptcy, is he somehow exempt from your judgement? After all, he filed too. Like I said, I’m not against him at all—–in fact, I applaud him because he DID learn something from his bankrupcty experience, and indeed made the fresh start for which it was intended.

    So, although Dave Ramsey falls into the category of thief as you have labeled those who have filed, I still like the guy anyway—–cause I’m in the legalized theft ring, just like he was.

  43. Maybe Ramsey has some true religion now and has given up his judgements, or maybe he is just on the hot seat with people questioning HIS bankruptcy so he is going easier on those who filed and even apperaing to show some compassion! .
    His words on the Failure Magazine online article may be coming back to haunt him!
    HA HA HA HA! Are too many people wondering about Daves integrity????
    I for one have!

  44. The funny thing is—I don’t question his integrity, whether he ever discloses the facts about his bankruptcy or not. And, even funnier, the only grievance I have related to him at all is with his “followers”. From what I hear directly from him on the radio and anything related to him in his articles, he just doesn’t come across as much as an arrogant, close-minded individual as so many of his “fans” unforunately do.

    As he claims to be a Christian man, I’d be willing to bet that he would be ashamed at the nature of many of the statements made by people who use his name to represent their own narrow-minded disdain of other peoples’ life situations of which they know absolutely nothing about. Although I’ve heard him many times denounce bankruptcy, I cannot say that I’ve heard him go as far as to call people who did file “thiefs”, especially as he himself has filed also. Anything he might choose to voice about bankrupcty would also relate to him, as he has done the same in his past. I’m positive he would not be that mindless.

    I also feel, as a Christian man, that he would be a bit shocked at the “Jim Jones” nature of so many of his fans——setting him up as a God-like figure, rebuking and being cruel to those who have chosen different paths than they have. That so many are so reverently worshiping him that they have failed to see that he is only a human being, and has actually failed in his past and had to file the hated “B” word himself.

    But, thank heavens I can make my own perception of him, based on his own words (still have to read his books), and not based on the personalities of his misguided “followers”.

  45. I can’t believe you guys are still debating this! HAHA. You know Dave never said this stuff was new. As a matter of fact, he states that this is “what your Grandma would have told you, just packaged better.” He is also not ashamed to make money of off the packaging either and I don’t blame him. I bought the stuff because the stuff is worth the price. It is good stuff.

    Anyway, I don’t really care what you think of the guy. I honestly thought you guys would have it figured out by now that many don’t like him because they aren’t succeeding in the same way and are “using debt” as a tool when the debt is really using them. But that is my opinion.

    Just to let you know, the system works well and my wife and I are enjoying many freedoms from our debts!!!! We are nearing the half way point by now.

    Have a great time talking about it all. I’ve been doing it, and it works. It isn’t rocket science, just self control. Who would have ever thought!

    The one you love to hate,
    Ray

  46. Hey—I thought it was over, too. I have nothing against Ramsey, like I said. But I do get insulted by being judged as some of the latest comments have done. Besides—-read my post in full! I’ve no objection to Ramsey at all—–I’ve decided not to judge him by a handful of his ill-mannered followers.

    But—–on the other hand—–Ive made my comment, and that’s all for me. People with attitudes such as they’ve displayed are really not important enough to waste—and I do mean waste——much time or energy.

    And—-like I’ve said to you before——I really am proud of your success! And anyone else who has had the same. My only point is that it just does not give anyone license for name-calling and arrogance. That is so distasteful and unecessary.

    Again, Ray, congratulations to you on your success.

  47. I listened to Dave every day for 5 years. Then I went to Entreleadership. Entreleadership costs 4,500 dollars per person to attend. It is about growing a small business. I took 4 people, so you can add up what I spent. I did not get enough info to justify this expensse, and a lot of it, I already knew. “A true leader puts others needs agead of his own.” But this is not the point of my response.
    People tend to get a little starstruck by dave. He’s just a gool ol country boy from my neck of the woods. And I think he means well. But not for a second do I not think that he is doing this 90% for himself, with some giving on the side. It makes him look good. It makes you trust him. And if you didn’t trust him, you wouldn’t pay 20,000 dollars to go to an event, or 20 dollars to buy a book.
    To those of you who have defended Dave on this site, some of you have good points. But MOST of you resorted to personal insults right away. If you were TRULY following Daves program, you would try to be a better steward than that. Dave gets mad at people all of the time. I have even heard him get a very hateful tone of voice with several people, but even then, he always says “What you are doing is stupid. And I have done stupid.” He does not say “You are stupid.” Even when attacked, he does not resort to personal insults. It is one thing I like about him.
    But he is a showman. He is an advertiser. He makes his money with radio, books, and seminars, which he advertises in a way that makes broke people think that they really need to spend the money on his stuff in order to soothe the fear and desperation. He’ll tell you to get out of debt one sentence, and then say he’ll tell you how to do it for a price the next. And you TRUST him. It is necessary. And every tactic he employs to make you think you need it,and he is honest, is covered in advertising classes. Not to say that he does not have valuable information. If none of it ever helped anyone, he’d be out of business. Byt don’t be confused. It IS a business.

  48. many don’t like him because they aren’t succeeding in the same way
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If that was true , Carol and I we would dislike many of the other popular financial advisors.
    I think Mary Hunt is terrific and I know Carol does also.
    I also greatly admire the work Harvard Professor Elizabeth Warren does .
    .Suzi Orman gets a bit dramatic, but she has sound advice.

  49. I think you need to not confuse financial advice with biblical/moral advise. Ramsey filed bankrupty. The fact that he did file does NOT preclude him from advising others on the drawbacks of filing. And perhaps (who can know what is in his mind or in his heart?) if he had to do it over again he would not file, given the emotional price may have been too high. It would be interesting to consider the plight of a typical caller to his show: 5-6 figure debt, on the verge of bankrupcy. Ramsey’s strategy (paraphrased) is to work like a dog, live a bare-bone existance (“eat beans and rice”) and use every available penny to pay off those creditors. After 2-4 years of doing this, one sould be out of debt. Then (presumably) continue for a little while longer and stockpile the extra cash and invest it. The unspoken alternative would be to to file bankrupcy, then work like a dog for 2-3 year but IMMEDIATELY start stockpiling the cash. Same results except in a much smaller time period. Is one more/less moral then the other, particularly when support of a family/children are involved?

  50. Dave Ramsey often mentions that once you are debt free you should give a lot away. he doesn’t neglect the issue of charity. If, for example, I’m donating 10% of my income to charity, is it OK to buy an SUV and spend $30 extra dollars a month on gas (ignoring the issue of global warming) or do I have to give and give until I’m living on beans and rice again?

  51. Roy,
    Thanks for bringing this back to the original issue and asking a great question:
    “do I have to give and give until I’m living on beans and rice again?”

    I think the issue really is a question of a lot of other Biblical commands to give and meet the needs of those around us. You have to ask yourself if your needs are being met on your beans and rice diet. Do you “have to” do things, or should you be compelled by the life that Christ lived to do those things?
    It’s a tough issue to take up and it’s the kind of thing I try to do everyday, but I’m not sure what direction to take.

    In fact, that’s why my blog is called Trying to Follow, cause that’s what I’m doing.

  52. Well, I think this is an interesting question and I’ve asked it of myself many times in the past, being a Christian myself. How much comfort should we allow ourselves? When I asked the question about giving and giving I didn’t really have an answer myself, I was just wondering what you thought.

    Dave talks about paying off your debts, setting up an emergency fund, a retirement fund, life insurance, and a “blow” fund, the last being money to spend for your enjoyment. Is it right to blow money you could spend on the less fortunate?

    To be truly Christ-like would mean giving away all of your belongings and living in near poverty. That is a hard way to go. But I also think God sees value in the raising of a family and a certain income is necessary to do that. If I have children I’ll want them to live in a safe neighborhood, go to good schools, etc. However, I don’t think an SUV factors into that lifestyle.

    Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this!

    By the way, though he may be wrong (only God truly knows), Dave’s heart seems to be in the right place so I don’t know if he really deserves a ditching.

  53. There are so many scriptures that one could quote on that subject. But, living in today’s world, I wonder, too, how much sacrifice and/or giving is required in order to feel that you are Christ-like in your living.

    One thing I thought was this: one of the most Godly men, who more personifies Christ in today’s society for many, many years is Billy Graham. I honestly can’t think of many men who could compare to his walk with Chrsit in his life, with his ministry. And, yet, I honestly do not feel that he has a “rice and beans” lifestyle.

    On the other, hand, another person who indeed personified Christ’s walk is Mother Theresa. She DID give up everything to follow Chrsit and minister to the world.

    It’s such a tough question, and I honestly believe in my heart that if a person truly has a realtionship with Christ, He will guide them in what His will is for thier individual lives. I’ve seen a lot of “religious” people on television who I feel abuse the idea of “giving” , etc., and live very extravagantly. But I’ve also seen many Godly people who just happen to live in very comfortable, if not affluent, lifestyles. And I don’t for a minute think of them as anything less than Christ-like.

    While I don’t suppose SUV’s are a necessary for a Godly life, I also don’t feel a person is NOT walking a Godly life if they DO own and drive one. Perhaps spending money you don’t have for one, in order to maintain status, would certainly not be Christlike. But what you buy within your means is between you and God, and not for others to judge.

    I feel it just depends on your convictions and what you feel God wants of you.
    –Carol

  54. As long as an SUV isn’t interfering with your life with God it seems like that should be OK. I think the important thing is that you not be so attached to worldly things that you couldn’t give them up if He wanted you to. But maybe God wanted this woman to sponsor a child or something like Ariah was talking about.

    It seems to me that if you’re not attached to worldly things, why wouldn’t you give up more of them up? If a man has a working minivan but wants an SUV, it’s obviously out of some worldly desire. Otherwise he’d just donate more money to charity and putter around in the minivan for a few more years.

    I guess the question is, is that degree of worldly desire wrong?

  55. I think you hit on it, Roy—-maybe it’s a matter of how much importance you put on it. That’s a good point. For instance, “Thou shat have no other gods before me”, as I was reading in our AWANA program at church, actually meant not to let “things” come between you and God—which is pretty much on your line of thinking.

    I can’t think that God wants people to give up all wordly possessions and wealth, becaue too many of the patriarchs of the old testamanet (Abraham, Job, David, Solomon, etc) were very wealthy men and possesed very much weatlh and possessions (by their standards, and even maybe by ours today). And yet God richly blessed their lives by having very close relationships to them.

    I love the story of Job, because Satan was given the power to destroy everything Job owned, down to his children and livestock, being sure that Job would curse God. But Job remianed faithful and steadfast. And God replaced everything Job had lost, doubled. So God, in my mind, would have no objections to weatlth or possessions, if the person still maintained their walk with Him and, of course, acknowledged the source of this blessing.

    Christ did, HImself, forsake worldly possesions, as did his disciples; however, he only taught (for example, to the wealthy young man who approached him) that he needed to be WILLING to forsake worldly possessions—-to place God before them. To me, that seems to be the key. Of course, whether you were actually required to do so woult be a very personal and spiritual decision between you and God.
    –Carol

  56. I think it’s funny when we talk about “possessions” considering we really don’t own anything. Dave talks about this a lot: we are Money Mangers of God. It is clear in scripture that He wants us to have fun in this world and enjoy what life has to offer (like off roading with an SUV or even on Roading and just enjoying the ride). However, everything we do “have” should be used for God’s glory – not our own. If the SUV is a status symbol to you, get rid of it. If the SUV is your personal preference of transportation to and from work in which you glorify God at work and with t he $ you make from work, keep it. I don’t care.

    I think it is real minimal./nitpicky.
    If can use my Hummer to glorify the Lord more than I can use my Hybrid, then I’m going to have to get that Hummer, but I’ll pay cash for it or get it used so I can go sponsor a child!

    bye

  57. Carol, you bring up a good point regarding the wealth of Old Testament patriarchs, but many things changed during the New Testament , we don’t follow the laws of the Old Testament today. The most important change might be that as their was no savior in the Old Testament, there was no way to attain salvation. What if the road to attain salvation requires giving up all of our unnecessary possessions?
    Here is a link I found about that: http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/WhyWeDontFollowtheOldTestament.htm
    It talks about why we do not keep the Old Law and it might relate to what we’re talking about here.

    I was just thinking that if you were willing to forsake your possessions, which we were thinking might be the key, why wouldn’t you just do it? If they’re not so dear that you can live without them, what’s stopping you from donating everything but what you must have to live to charity and, as Ariah has listed on as a goal of his, living only $1 above the poverty line? I’m having trouble coming to a conclusion on that. Maybe that’s because the conclusion I’d like, that it’s OK for me to own luxurious things, is wrong and I won’t accept it.

    Ray, I like what you said about not really owning anything. It is all God’s and as long as we realize that, maybe it is OK. But, as it isn’t ours, and I can’t see how one car could allow one to glorify God more than any other car (other than safety, or just being able to run), isn’t the right thing to give up the luxurious in favor of helping others glorify God?

    Also, I would like to read the scriptures that indicate how God feels in terms of the enjoyment of worldly possessions if you could please send me in ther right direction.

    I feel like maybe we’re not supposed enjoy the world in that way, but rather take enjoyment in walking in the footsteps of Christ (to the best of our ability) and bringing others to the Lord. I worry that if you take enjoyment in worldly things it might interfere with your eternal enjoyment of life with God after death.

  58. You leave footprints, I’ll leave tread marks! : ) Either way we will impact the world. You do it your way, I’ll do it mine & when we get to heaven, we can swap stories. Who knows, maybe our mansions are being built in the same neighborhood up there.

    I tend to think that becoming very successful is Godly, as is become wealthy. Even Psalms 1 refrences a man whose delight is in the law of the Lord and meditates on it both day and night and in everything he does, he prospers. So what about the unprosperous or poor? Does that make them less Godly because they are obviously not delighting in the law of the Lord and meditating on it? Does it make them like the chaff which the wind drives away & the wicked who will not stand in the judgement?

    No. I don’t think so. Just like I don’t think that all rich folks are less Godly because they have nice things or poor folks or more Godly because they don’t have nice things.

    Also, I don’t think that giving up all luxurious items necessarily brings glory to God automatically. Is it not the intent of the heart that is the issue rather than the legalistic nature of “ritualistically” doing stuff to gain favor or bring glory to God? Likewise, I belive that owning a luxury good also is an issue of the heart and not of doing or owning stuff to gain favor or bring glory to God. Remember, in Biblical times, they did not have a free market economy like we have in the states. Most of the rich were rich by curruption or inheritance, not better business practice. Today, in America, you can start poor & become a multi millionair just by saving a few bucks every month or starting your own business.

    This is why I think we should give 100% of our income and items to the Lord. You do this by using everything you have to bring glory to God – if you have much or not at all – you have NOTHING apart from Christ.
    Here are some examples of what I mean:
    Some people say a Chopper is a luxury good, but the Biker’s for Christ Minister may consider a really nice $100,000 chopper a great thing to have as it draws more bikers to him so that he can share Christ with them… where as if he just had a “workable” old harley, he may be shunned by them.
    Some people say air conditioning is a luxury good (many in Thailand where I have been) where as we may think it is a necessity in keeping folks comfortable to stay with us so that we can share Christ.
    Some people say that being wealthy is a luxury, while others think it is necessary for reaching out to other wealthy individuals who would not give someone out of “their class” the time of day or necessary for giving away large sums of money and funding entire missions organizations that take Christ all over the world.
    I believe it has all to do with the heart, not the posession, not the item, and not the money.

    If we can do better, if we can do more… shouldn’t we?

    Who are we to say what is necessary for one individual and what is not necessary for another. Only say what is necessary for ME to glorify God with My Life, My Skills, My Talents, My Abilities, My Income, My Things – which are actually – 100% – all the Lords. This is a personal matter.
    This “personal conviction” area is altered when you have close personal relationships with another whom you are keeping accountable to THEIR personal convictions about glorifying God. Otherwise, be careful of boasting aobut high income or low income. One is not better than the other. Today, you can easily have the same mindset the rich pharasies did and be poor as dirt… (look at me, I’m better than this or that individual because I fill in the blank). It is all about the heart.

    I think we all agree… but maybe our personal convictions differ. Oh well.

  59. Roy, you brought up a good point in response to my comment about the patriarchs of the Old Testamant—and that things are not the same in the New Testament world.

    Well—one thing I know for sure. The God of Abraham from the Old Testament; the God of Paul in the New Testament; and the God of Carol in the 21st century is still the same. And He will be the same until the end of the world.

    He has not changed, nor will He ever. I feel that Godly people who are wealthy today are no different than those in the Old Testament. I love the story of Dorcas in the New Testament, who was a wealthy, successful businessworman. She opened her home to Christ’s followers as a place for them to worship and meet. She’s a good New Testament example of a wealthy person who is a servant of God.

    Ouch—-gotta go. The girl who works with me just called in and quit. Say a prayer for me, please! It’s going to be rough!

    –Carol

  60. I see what you’re saying, but , although God never changed, what he required of his people did. As for Dorcas, I’m not aware of any business enterprises she was involved with. I know she was very charitable and made people jackets and things for free. But that’s not the same as charging for a service. It’s charity, not business.

    I understand what you and Ray are saying but, as Ariah mentioned, I’m just trying to make sure I’m not just trying to justify it because it’s what I want to hear. But as Ray said, if you feel good in your heart about what you’re doing it’s hard to see why God would be unhappy with that.

    So, for me, the thing is I’m questioning whether or not I feel in my heart that I’m doing enough. Maybe it’s not about wealth, maybe I’m failing in other areas and trying to compensate. Who knows? So say a prayer for me, and I’ll say one for you. (Good luck at work!)

  61. I just found this blog and spent some time reading over it. I found interesting that the conversation about Dave Ramsey has been going on for so long.

    Someone may have already mentioned this, but by the time that I quit reading, no one had…I have heard Dave Ramsey mention several times on his show that he did pay back his creditors since he filed bankruptcy. And I’m not even a regular listener.

    He doesn’t like bankruptcy, and so outspoken against it because he doesn’t want people to go throgh what he did.

    If someone has finally answed the question as to whether he paid back his creditors after bankrupcy, then sorry for the repetition.

  62. He doesn’t like bankruptcy, and so outspoken against it because he doesn’t want people to go throgh what he did.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    That doesn’t make any sense! Oh my… go through what he did! Another Ramsey scare tactic! Like bankruptcy is going to alter your life negativly forever!
    That is so far from the truth!
    Whatever Ramsey’s experience with bankruptcy,
    not everyones experience with it is the same!
    It seems like Ramsey is trying to bring back the shame of bankruptcy. There is no shame in filing bankruptcy if that is what will get a person going again to become a productive member of society!
    Having read many things from people who have gone through bankruptcy, the most common words said are, I wish I had done it sooner.
    The shame in this country is the crooks in the US Congress who allow big business like credit card co’s to trick and take advantage of people and make it next to impossible to pay back debt with the loan shark interest and other fees they pile on if a person is unable to pay the balance in a timely manner.
    The only escape many of the CC co’s hostages had was to file bankruptcy!

    I no longer listen to Ramsey. I never once heard him mention his own bankruptcy and paying back creditors. He refuses to answer questions about it, and I notice in many articles he doesn’t say anything about it.
    I don’t believe it!

    No financial advisor should discourage people from filing bankruptcy. It is a simple fact that bankruptcy is sometimes necessary.
    And if anyone filing bankruptcy is wracked with guilt because of filing, then when they are back on their feet they can always repay their creditors. And I hope if they choose to do that they eliminate the loan shark interest and other unfair fees these crooks
    have piled on.

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  64. Wow. May is sure back in full force huh? Take it easy on Ed. He was just trying to help.
    By the way, the shame is bankruptcy is your opinion. I think there is shame in bankruptcy and I think it is the lazy way out (for most). Maybe, I’ve never met one, but maybe there are a few good reasons for filing. But I have never found one that can be undone by just changing a lifestyle and making better decisions & working your tail off. Well, I take that back, there where a few callers who called Dave and there was no way out, so he recomended bankruptcy and then showed them how to get back on their feet & told them that it wont ruin their lives… etc… But for most, it isn’t a good decision. Most people just get overwhelmed & want out.
    I tend to think it is a character issue. If you chose to take the hard road and get 3 or 4 jobs and start paying off the debt one by one, I think your character would grow and develop more than it would if you filed. It is taking longer, it isn’t be easy, but if it is my debt, I’m paying it.
    I know you don’t agree May & I know that I’ve said some of this, but brother Ed needs some support.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    He doesn’t like bankruptcy, and so outspoken against it because he doesn’t want people to go throgh what he did.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Makes perfect sense to me. I get it, Ed. I get it.

    May, I don’t want to discuss this anymore. We can just agree to disagree.

  65. God knows the circumstances of why a person filed bankruptcy. It is between and that person and God
    . What you think doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.
    Take a look in the mirror. You will see a pompous a-hole!

  66. WOAH! What is up with all the personal attacks!? Shesh.
    I guess God knows what is in your heart though, so it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans what you do on the outside.

    PS I just looked in the mirror… I’m a pretty big guy, but I don’t have a mirror that regularly displays my a-hole. You may want to get a new mirror & lighten up a bit.

  67. If you hate Christians, you sould contact you token “Christian friend” and let them know. They could probably help you work these feelings out a little more than some meaningless face over an internet blog.
    But I see your point & I guess you are right, May. Christians should just lay down and let others trample all over them. We should never stand up for ourselves or show any kind of self respect. We should never use liturate devices such as “satire” to prove a point. We should take what eveyone dishes out and never return the favor. We should never question that which we don’t believe in and always allow others to display thier opinions freely, but never ours. I get it now. YOU have freedom of speech… I don’t? You have the divine (well, not divine if you don’t believe in The Divine), but the divine right, ability, skill, tallent, and whatever else you need to display your opinions. I don’t. If I disagree and show so, I’m a pompous a-hole (why not say the word ass since that is what you mean and it all is in our heads anyway when we type a-hole – I did it again, sorry) and what I say doesn’t amount to a hill of beans (are they kindey beans though? Cuz if so, that could be a large hill).

    Besides, where did all those personal attacks come from & how do you come up with this stuff from someone who said, ” We can agree to disagree.” I think that was pretty fair and I think you to be rather harsh, but you never answered my question.

    (You have to admit the mirror thing was funny. I was thinking of something along the lines of, “You know you are right, I always thought that was a crack in the mirrior, but it IS my a-hole!” but I thought the other was funnier.) Be sure to read the last 4 words in my former post.
    Thanks, May! I hope we can work on our relationsihp issues. 😉

  68. I never said I hated Christians. I said I can see why some people do. And it must not be difficult for them to feel that way.
    I believe you are entitiled to say what you want.
    If you take your beliefs y seriously though, you may want to stop judging others who have filed bankruptcy. You can’t possibly know their situations to make any judgements at all about how they should handle their situations.
    You don’t even know me. You know nothing about my health or anything else that may or may not have led me to chose bankruptcy.
    I am not ashamed that I filed bankruptcy! I never will be!

  69. Why does eveyone use this term “judge” when it is simply a matter of opinion? Usually it happens when a concervative refrences anyone who isn’t. But when the other party refrences the concervative, is it concidered a “judgement”? No, I just should be more tolerant. Anway back on point:

    Good, You filed & you are not ashamed. If I filed, I would have been ashamed – and I think most people are there. Ok, so what? You can’t possibly know my situation or make a judgement that I shouldn’t be ashamed or anyone else. I should and would have been ashamed. I did not file and I am not ashamed. So what? That is my opinion.

    Speaking of the blog titled: Iamnotashamed…. We are way off topic. Maybe we should move this discussion elsewhere.
    I want an SUV and one day I’m gonna buy me one – cash!! What do you think of that Ariah!?! ; ) I promise not to drive on the wet lands though. lol

  70. I don’t think you are even aware how you judge others .
    You seem to be concerned about honoring God by tithing, so why not honor Him by not judging others who have filed bankruptcy.
    “Judge not, that you will not be judged”
    It may be your opinion that many people who have filed should get 2 or three or even four jobs, but the facts remain, that you have no way of knowing anyones personal situation and what led them to file bankruptcy.
    Christians could honor God so much by listening more and judging less.

  71. “Judge not, that you will not be judged,” one of the most overused and misused Biblical quotations. It’s used to all the time to make sure no one has an opinion, and if you take it to far it leads into a ridiculous state of ethical relatavism. You’re not a relatavist, are you May?

    If an act is intrinsically evil (I’m not saying that bankruptcy is) or just stupid, it is our duty as Christians (or just good human beings) to help that person with a kind heart and explain to them how they’re messing up.

    The chapter continues:

    “…how will you tell your brother,’Let me remove the speck from your eye;’ and behold, the beam is in your own eye?

    5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

    Ray and ol’ Dave Ramsey don’t have money problems. As long as they’re not bragging or being boastful, I don’t see anything in the Bible against them giving advice. The verse “is speaking to not judging harshly, unfair, or any other cheap and selfish way.” (Interesting article: http://www.capalert.com/judgenot.htm)

    I mean, if someone was about walk into the middle of a busy highway and Ray stopped them and had a conversation with them like the one here (which has been in no way derogatory to anyone) would you push him out of the way, kick the other person into the the highway and point your finger at Ray reminding him to judge not, that he will not be judged?

    No one is judging any particular person. No one is pointing out one person’s flaws for a laugh or to make an example out of them. Everyone is just talking about an act and whether or not it is a good idea. Actually, the only one who has judged anyone has been you, May, when you decided Ray was a “pompous a-hole.” Way to go.

    But that said, sometimes bankruptcy might be necessary. Ray said it, Dave Ramsey’s said it, sometimes it might be the only way out. I think Ray just feels it’s overused and I think Dave would say the same. I don’t really care one way or the
    other, I’m just here to judge people.

  72. Oh yes, the good samatarian is going to show everyone the error of their ways!
    How can I ever thank you! LOL!!!

    Followers of Jesus Christ would be well advised to speak little, listen much, and glorify God by minding their own business!

    1. May sounds like an aethiast that would like nothing more than to change American from a Christian nation to a secular nation.

  73. >God knows the circumstances of why a person filed bankruptcy. It is between and that >person and God

    Patently wrong. It’s between that person, God, and all their creditors. And all the consumers who will have to pay for what the debtor *DIDN’T* have to pay.

    We hear the same from folks on welfare when they are having their fifth kid from the third father, it’s between God and them. Yes, it is, UNTIL they take the check from the federal government, which gets its funs from TAXING other PEOPLE. Then there are few more people involved. Saying anything else is a blatant lie or just a selfish, ME ME world view.

    NOTE: I know what government cheese tastes like. I’m not knocking ppl who have been knocked down and need assistance. I”m very, VERY, *VERY* much knocking on the idiots who make statements that it’s between them and God when there are other people involved. It’s their failure to take responsibility for their own actions and the consequences it has on others that make the world less than paradise.

    I’m also knocking on people who use their kids as an excuse. I have a child so I need an SUV. I have children and if I work two jobs they won’t see me… the heck they won’t. They’ll see an example of hard work to pay off debt and they’ll see the bad effects of debt. That’s better to see than somebody ducking their responsibilities and being at home with them teaching them not how to be responsible or that life in the end is a cause and effect reality.

    >. What you think doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.

    Okay, again, you have a problem with your bankruptcy and Ramsey because of your bankruptcy. Nobody else here does. If you truly felt there wasn’t an issue, you wouldn’t be so pugilistic. Lady MacBeth, line 1 call for you, ‘Me think she doth protest too much’

    >Take a look in the mirror. You will see a pompous a-hole!

    And the kind of person who will call another that on a blog is what kind of person? Seriously, if you hate something, don’t you do it to. You talk about listening and talking less to glorify God and then you call some when a pompus arse. That’s definitely talking and not very likely to glorify God.

    Also, on bankruptcy and the Bible, it was up to the Lender (under Jewish law) to forgive the debt. No place in there was anything about the debtor sayiing ‘forget you, I’m not paying’.

    Fact: working is a sure fire, money making scheme.

    Fact: Credit cards help people spend more than they make. If you spend only cash, you can’t spend more cash then you have. You can be broke (zero saved cash) but you can’t be bankrupt (where you can’t possibly repay the money owed).

    Fact: Bankruptcy is in place because sometimes it is the *only* way out.

    Fact: America became a great country by people *not* looking for the easy way out.

    Fact: those with cash can help. Those with debt aren’t in a position to help anyone. The samaritan (note: samaritans weren’t popular) was able to do this good deed because he had cash.

    Fact: Ramsey has helped thousands avoid filing bankruptcy and given them hope. You don’t like him, fine. You like other people who assuage your feelings, great. Telling other people that the person is a fraud, and blah blah blah and you demand to see where they paid back their debt. Well, you call people pompous arses… I don’t think anybody is going to bother listening to you and your demands.

    Fact: Jesus never went around calling anybody a pompous anything. I’m pretty sure he isn’t fond of his ‘followers’ calling people stuff. He did go off a little on the pharisees, but that’s because they were being hipocrites. You claim Ramsey is a hipocrit. I’ve listened to him for over a year and I’ve only seen a few blog postings from you. I’m hear to say, from an outside observer, you make the outside of the cup clean (you fill in the rest of the verse).

    Fact: The story of the fish and the loaves couldn’t have taken place without somebody having fish and loaves folks.

    Use cash.
    Save for things.
    Stay out of debt.
    Tithe (if Christians all did this, the world would be a paradise).
    Help friends and family, and then strangers.
    Realize your ability to help means you are already blessed, and be humble with that blessing.
    Don’t knock on somebody’s SUV when you can be worried about your own affairs. If you are wearing sack clothe and ashes, you aren’t modest, your immodest. Just like when you fast and you make sure everyone is aware you are fasting. Or saying loud prayer so everyone hears.

    NOTE: My mother worked her arse off as a single parent to keep a roof over our head. She worked long hours (and some times more than one job at a time). There’s lot of times she would have rather been with us then work, but because of her example, because she never took the easy way out, she raised two frugal, hard working sons who have both been married over seven years. One is debt free except the house. The other is almost debt free except the house and a few more car payments.

    Oh, and if you want to call me anything, feel free. I’ve ate government cheese, been the recipient of food banks, and been in a house where the inside room temperature was under 40 degrees because we couldn’t afford gas. I may be an arse as well, but as it states in the Old Testament “Even an ass knows its master, but not Israel”

    Jesus is the Christ and our saviour. He died for our sins. Doesn’t mean we should sin. Doesn’t mean we don’t have work to do (faith without works is dead) and it doesn’t mean we aren’t responsible for our actions (buying what we can’t afford, buying pizza when we aren’t funding retirement, colledge education, or life and health insurance), and it does mean we should help others, but help is not giving a drunk a drink, food to the idle (by the sweat of their brow), or cash (or forgiveness of debt) to folks who don’t know how to manage it.

    Most bankruptcies don’t fix the problem that caused the bankruptcy. Yeah, there’s bankruptcies because of medical expenses, lay offs, etc… but less of those would occur if folks had an emergency fund instead of a 32 inch tv and cable. If they had medical insurance for their family instead of a $300 or $400 car payment. That’s a fact, and the one good thing with the new bankruptcy law… education on living and making a budget.

    If an SUV is a salvation issue (hint, it normally isn’t, unless that SUV becomes your pride, joy, and God), I can definitely say calling somebody else a pompous arse is definitely a salvation issue.. you have RACA against your brother, you need to leave your offerings at the altar (if you tithe), repent, and ask for forgiveness both from the person you called an arse and from your Heavenly Father.

    Rant over. And way off thread topic.

  74. Yea. Just like Jesus. Never talking, never helping, just twiddling your thumbs and keeping the good news to yourself.

    If you’ve read any of the New Testament you’ll see Jesus, the Apostles, and all of his disciples spreading the gospel, correcting people where they have erred, and all sorts of things that require talking and don’t work well when everyone’s just minding their own business.

  75. Wow. Well hello to yall! you’ve come late, but couldn’t have come at a better time. I thought I was the lone wolf on this “debt is dumb” issue.

    May, you speak a lot about what followers of Christ should do, yet I don’t really think you know what you are talking about. I am a follower of Christ, walking with Christ daily and abiding in Him, and yet I believe that I have said nothing in appropriate and I regret nothing I have said. I think I’m well aware of what I should be doing. I believe I have listened/read well and I understand your points fully.
    Here is what I believe you have said in the past:
    You feel that YOU were in a place where there was no way out but for you to declare bankruptcy. You feel that many other individuals are in your same position and take advantage of this tool to free them to a better life and a new start. You feel that forgiveness of debt has the ability to change the way one looks at $ in the future. You feel that if we speak out against bankruptcy, we are speaking out against you. You believe that anyone who disagrees is judging your personal financial decision that you apparently came to peace with. You feel that I am a pompous ass hole and what I say doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.
    Here is my request: separate your personal emotions from the issue for a second and re-read many of these posts. I believe that you will find a lot of truth in them and I think that it could really open your eyes if you open your mind. Get rid of the religious bias (I have a feeling that if I was anything but Christian you would be more open to hear my ideas) and listen to what we are saying.
    No one is judging you, we are judging the issue of bankruptcy and we don’t like. I hate bankruptcy. Ok, so you disagree. Oh well.
    I believe that bankruptcy is like giving a clean driving record & a beer to an Alcoholic/DWI repeat offender. It is like putting a child predator outside the city limits and then slowly allowing him to move back to a home by the elementary school after 7 years. It doesn’t change the behavior, but enables them to eventually repeat the offence. This is not good for them or our society. I think we should have much stricter lending laws so that “poor folks” couldn’t get too many credit cards and couldn’t get too many loans with out taking some kind of personal finance course or job training course to increase their income. And I would hope they could never get payday loans. These things only cripple the poor and enable bad decision-making.

    Ok, I think we’ve run this topic into the ground.

    Debt is Dumb.

  76. Wow, what a lively debate. I’m having trouble understanding why there are so many paragraphs dedicated to crucifying someone who learned from a mistake and wants to warn others. The fact that he makes a lot of money doing it is neither here nor there.

    When a person turns from sin to grace, and tells others about the lessons they learned, you call them an evangelist. But when Dave tries to tell you what happened to him and how to avoid it, he’s somehow a scam artist?

    I do know one thing… To an unbeliever who comes across this site and reads all the personal attacks between brothers and sisters in Christ, it seems we have a lot of squabbling going on in the family. Sounds kind of dysfunctional, don’t you think?

  77. Dan,

    A lot of squabbling for sure, and your absolutely right, this is a dysfunctional family.

    I think the sooner Christians can collectively admit that the better.

    I think your point is valid though, a lot of people posting comments here have been pretty rude.

    I also think they’ve gotten miles away from what my original post was all about. But oh well.

  78. you should look into the “send $30 to sponsor a child.” people have gone to the city where their “child” lives to find it is a scam.

  79. Jim,

    I appreciate your concern, but I think your concerns only apply to a very few number of shady organizations out there.

    There are plenty of very legitimate organizations out there who truly do a lot of good and do sponsor many children. I know of a few people who have personally visited the child they sponsor.

    World Vision is one of the better organizations out there.

  80. I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF ALL OF YOU FREAKS STOP BRINGING UP MY NAME!!!!!!!! YOU ARE ALL GOING TO DIE BROKE SO SHUT UP!!! SEE YOU ALL SOON.

  81. Many of the comments that I read from above are THE REASON why I am no longer a church goer. The hypocrisy is astonishing.

    I try to live my life to the best of my ability in what God wants for me and my family. I have made, and continue to make, many mistakes in my life. Some I’m ashamed of, some I’m not. The goal is to learn from all of them equally.

    Some need to re-read comments and see if there is anything to learn.

    Good luck to you all!

    Matt

  82. Matt, I just have to respond–up until this point, I’ve lost interest in the Dave Ramsey debate, as he is just not important enough in the big scheme of things to waste any more energy on.
    BUT—-what, particularly, do you find hypocritical in the messages posted so far?
    I’m not contradicting you at all—you have a right to your opinion and feelings. It just surprised me that, of all things, hypocisy should have been noted.

    A “hypocrite”, according to the Thesaurus, is a “fraud”. I just don’t see where anyone is being a fraud by saying truthfully how they feel and think, no matter how they choose to present themselves.

    I’m sure many of us who profess to be Christians in these discussions have gotten heated at times, being fervent about whatever way we’ve chosen to believe about the subjects; however, that still does not make us hypocrites for doing so.

    Fortunately, God is more forgiving than our fellow men, and allows us to make mistakes, and loves us no less for making them.

    At any rate, I’m just trying to see how anyone here in any of these discussions has fallen into the category of being “hypocritical”, as all the comments I’ve read have just been people sounding off, but being truthful.

    I may be completely misunderstanding what you mean, which is why I was wondering if you could elaborate on that thought.

  83. I AGREE WITH MATT. YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF BROKE HYPICRITES. YOU PEOPLE ARE THE REASON I THAT I STOPPED GOING TO CHURCH THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO, AND STARTED MY OWN. NOW ONCE AND FOR ALL, SHUT YOUR BROKE PIE HOLES AND REALIZE THAT WASTING YOUR TIME ON THE INTERNET AND PLAYING YOUR NEW PS3 ISN’T GOING TO HELP YOU GET YOUR BROKE BUTT OUT OF DEBT. YOU ALL NEED TO GET PART TIME JOBS DELIVERING PIZZA’S JUST LIKE DAVE TELLS YOU TO DO!!!!

  84. This is too funny. . .

    If I broke my arm, and then said it’s dumb to break your arm, you shouldn’t break your arm, you should avoid breaking your arm at all costs, it doesn’t make me a hypocrite for having broken my arm.

    It means I learned from a bad experience, and learning from experience is a sign of wisdom.

    If Dave bore the mark of bankruptcy, then he agreed to have his life analyzed by a court, they agreed to a bankruptcy (issued by a judge), and he has rebuilt his life.

    He owes nothing to his previous creditors.

    I love seeing anti-Christian hate mongers trying to bludgeon the man with their “if he was REALLY a christian” nonsense and pushing their own financial pundits at the same time.

    I would not take their advice on being a good Christian anymore than I’d take advice from a fat man on how to lose weight. . . he may know every diet in the world, but he’s not a valid source of living the techniques.

  85. NOW I AGREE WITH RYAN!!! YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF BROKE ANTI-CHRISTIAN HATE MONGERS!!! I SEE YOUR TYPE ALL OF THE TIME DOWN HERE WHERE I’M AT. NOW SHUT UP, GO BREAK YOUR ARM, AND DELIVER PIZZA’S PART TIME LIKE DAVE TOLD YOU TO DO!!!!!!!!!

  86. A heated discussion is one thing… Personal attacks on another’s character is quite another.

    There were a few good comments in the posts, but the overall feeling I left with was one of hatred and contempt.

    There are several here that can quote the bible quite well. The hypocrisy, at least what I feel is hypocrisy, comes when one can say…

    “If you don’t believe what Dave teaches, then that is your prerogative, but until you become debt free and are sitting on half a million dollars in assets rather than half a million in liabilities, then I say, “Shut up.” If you come up with a better plan than Dave’s, I’d like to hear it.

    Until then, keep your pessimism and skepticism to yourself and let others who really need a Total Money Makeover continue forward.”

    I don’t really have a problem with that type of statement, until it’s closed with…

    “Blessings and Debt-free Riches,”

    One of your comments
    But—–on the other hand—–Ive made my comment, and that’s all for me. People with attitudes such as they’ve displayed are really not important enough to waste—and I do mean waste——much time or energy.

    And here’s a nice little banter.
    May said,
    Wrote on October 14, 2006 @ 6:30 am
    God knows the circumstances of why a person filed bankruptcy. It is between and that person and God
    . What you think doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.
    Take a look in the mirror. You will see a pompous a-hole!
    Ray said,
    Wrote on October 14, 2006 @ 6:39 am
    WOAH! What is up with all the personal attacks!? Shesh.
    I guess God knows what is in your heart though, so it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans what you do on the outside.
    PS I just looked in the mirror… I’m a pretty big guy, but I don’t have a mirror that regularly displays my a-hole. You may want to get a new mirror & lighten up a bit.
    May said,
    Wrote on October 14, 2006 @ 6:48 am
    Many people hate Christians. It’s not difficult to understand why.

    I guess what I mean by hypocrisy in this sense is, if a person is willing to put themselves out there as a Christian, shouldn’t the person at least try to hold to that virtue? We are all entitled to have our opinion, and a heated discussion is just fine. Heck I love a good debate but what I read, maybe the way I read it, didn’t strike me as a debate. The conversations in the postings above are no different to me than the folks in my old church looking down their collective noses at me after my brother asked the church to pray for me and my family.

  87. Ray,

    My brother tells me the same thing (find a new “church”). We’ve had this discussion numerous times. Could be that I’m just weak. Or it could be that I’ve made a consious decision to not let my faith lie in the hands of another. I think faith in God is a personal thing requiring much introspection. If you have ten people read the same passage from the same bible, I’ll bet you get at least 5 differing opinions of what it means. This doesn’t mean that I’m not open to someone elses interpretation, only that I’m not as willing as I once was to buy into that interpretation because that person is pastor, or priest etc.

    On a side note your predilection for being a smart-ass and speaking with candor, are two things that I like. Two of the same reasons I listen to and like Dave Ramsey. I don’t like, or agree, with everything he says. But then I don’t like or agree with EVERYTHING anyone says.

    Matt

  88. Matt, thanks for your reply about hypocrisy. I, like you, am tired of wasting so much energy on the Ramsey debate, so I won’t comment anymore about it. But something you said touched me and I just had to respond.
    I’m truly sorry that you had a bad experience with your church, and I hope you won’t let that be a reason to not go anymore, to any other church.
    I do not agree with Ray–it doesn’t at all mean, in my opinion, that you are weak or that you’re not a Christian. I’m saying this because I’m having a similar problem with my church at this time. It happens to be a church run by many “pillars of the community”, and seems to be so restricted as to how worship is to be conducted. One poor visitor raised her hands in praise during a song one Sunday and people were staring at her like she was the Elephant Man. These “pillars of the community” find this intolerable, but I find THEM intolerable with their closed hearts. It is very hard for visitors to fit into our church community, and I myself am just tired of trying. I feel like this negative force is taking away from the real reason I’m supposed to be worshipping. But I’m not going to give up worship in a church environment because of a church who is mainly close-minded, cold-hearted and sanctimonious. (Know I probably didn’t spell that right). I will look elsewhere, because as Ray said, a church home can really be a blessing, if it is the right one, and a church where God is actually the force behind it.

    I hate that you and your brother had that experience—but please don’t let it turn you off to seeking a true church home. There are many out there. I wish you the best in that, and thanks again for your comments.

  89. Ray, I liked your comments. I’ve always hated to see people be discouraged by experiences they get in churches they attend—it CAN be a turn-off, but never needs to be a reason to NOT go at all. More than anything, I really hate that anybody at all has to experience such feelings in any church, but it just happens. Arrogance and ignorance are everywhere, and it would seem that a worship place would be immune—but it is not. In fact, Satan probably works harder in churches than anywhere else to discourage and drag down. All the more reason to defeat him.

    Oh—and to our little friend on the blog, “satan”—you’ve been a minor humorous touch with your sad little jabs at attempting to shock and —well, whatever it is you’re attempting to do. The only shock and horror I feel in regards to you is when the REAL Satan is defeated and cast into hell for eternity. If you choose to profess an alliance with him, you too will be joining him. It won’t be the fun little “hot” place you joke about. Whether it’s even flaming brimstone or not, I happily will never be able to tell you from experience. One thing I do know, though. The saddest, most dreadful part of it will be separation from God for eternity–no chance, ever, to turn back and choose God. Never. I grew up with hell and brimstone sermons, which scared me enough. But, even it that were not true, the worst hell I can imagine would be God’s absence for ever and ever. No light, ever.
    Sorry to carry on. But I feel so sorry for sad little people who masquerade as evil. The real Satan really loves you! Only tragic part is that—-when you are both together where he wants you both to be for eternity —- then, too late, you’ll realize—YOU’VE BEEN HAD!

  90. To quote Zig Ziglar: “Being in church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than being in a garage makes you a car.”

  91. SHUT UP CAROL, AND GO DELIVER PIZZA’S PART TIME!!!! WE’LL TAKE A LARGE SUPREME DOWN HERE, BUT GO LIGHT ON THE CHEESE. HITLER IS LACTOSE INTOLORENT, AND YOU DON’T WANT TO BE AROUND WHEN HE GETS THE SQUIRTS….IT CAN BE HELL, NO PUN INTENDED!! OH AND A 2 LITER OF REALLY COLD COKE WOULD BE GOOD. AUSTIN 3:16
    PS-I’M GLAD YOU CONSIDER ME YOUR LITTLE FRIEND….I KNEW I’D GET YA SOONER OR LATER…..MAAAAAHHHHHAAAAAWWW

  92. First of all, Ryan: it’s pretty well known that being in church doesn’t make you a Christian. But I do like the comparison. But, if you are a Christian, having a church family can be an added blessing in your life if it is a supportive group.

    Oh—and little “satan-wanna-be”—aren’t you just the cutest thing, trying to be all—-wait, what ARE you trying to be? I’m trying to get all offended at you, but you’re just too precious in a sad little sort of a way. And—sorry, little fella—won’t be able to deliver your pizza and coke—I’m not broke and don’t need a second job. I can loan you some money for one, though, cause you’re SO entertaining and I would hate to see your performance go unrewarded. Hang in there!

  93. Ray,

    I’m curious, if the bible is not meant for ones own interpretation how are any of us supposed to build our faith? I know your answer is, as previously stated, through prayerful study.

    You have to admit though, it’s a little confusing to say on one hand that I should study the bible, and learn the Truth, but then again your quote about not coming to one’s own intrepretation conflicts with that.

    I realize that I’m being somewhat arguementative, but these are the types of questions that my pea-brain is constantly asking. The bible was after all translated many moons ago. So we can’t read alot of it literally, because words no longer mean the same thing ie. weak/weary. I guess I have more questions than I thought I did.

    I found this blasted site because of a search on Dave Ramsey. I think perhaps it’s time I thought more intently about… God

  94. Matt, I really enjoyed your comment—and you hit the nail on the head about it perhaps being time to think more intently about God–that’s true for me, too.

    Not only was the Bible translated so long ago—but there have also been many, many editions and versions (King James, New King James, New Life, Living Bible, etc). On one hand, I know what Ray means. There are so many people who interpret the Bible as they want, using only partial excerpts instead of the entire context, to conform what the scriptures say to what they WANT them to say. And he may mean that. On the other hand, I think when studying the Word, though, it speaks to many people in many different ways. There are many things where there really is no definite interpretation, and a person just has to do like you said, and his faith has to guide him to an understanding of it. Either way, it’s still a learning experiance. And, most importantly, as you seem to already know, it’s a faith-building practice.
    I feel the Word was left to us, after Christ died, as our means to stay in touch with Him and to continue to grow in our daily lives.
    Promise you won’t laugh when I say this—-but one sure way to utilize it properly and to get the most from it—-is to pray before reading, that God will open your eyes to what you read, and that He will speak to you through the words.
    And you’re not a pea-brain! You keep on asking those questions, in your head and to others! There’s nothing wrong with wondering!

  95. About bible “versions”:
    Here is a helpful article I found about bible tanslations and the differences:
    Zondervan Site
    Here is a graphic representation that helped me know the difference:
    Follow this link: Zondervan.com Graph

    About the verse: 1 Peter 1:20 “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation”
    It is the strugle & experience of trying to understand by relying on Christ that builds our faith and our relationship with Christ (which is the point). If we just read the cliff notes & commentaries, than we loose on the spiritual development & the Holy Spirit revealing the truth to us. However, coming to a “wrong” conclusion on a piece of scripture is usually due to a lack of context, study, or fellowship.
    Philipians 2:12-13 (12)”So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; (13) for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”
    That is together with the body of believers.
    Thus, I believe that there is only 1 interpretation, and that is God’s. He is the only one that could reveal the Word to us and we can only hear from Him if we have a personal relaitonship with Him. We can only have a personal relationship with with if we are perfect & sinless. We can only be perfect and sinless if something pays the price for our sin. That is why we accept Christ. That is a gift. Ephesians 2:8-9
    (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9) not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    That is why after accepting Christ, the “works” begin. Working out our faith, working to share Christ…
    Ephesians 2:10
    (10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
    James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

    Yall have a great day.

  96. Very good explanation, Ray. I think that’s what I was trying to say—especially about the Holy Spirit. It IS a gift that is given to you upon accepting Christ and following Him. The Word is one precious, priceless way we have of growing in His knowledge, coupled with prayer. Prayer, after all, is conversation with Him.
    Another good point you had was the part that church does play in this growth. It can be such a growing, nurturing experience, if you are guided to the right church family. I hate that some church communities seem to deter potential members with their attitudes—but for every one that does so, there’s another one waiting to bring in those who long to know the Lord and His Word.
    Matt, I hope you and your brother will not be discouraged by your experience with the church you attended. You deserve to have a supportive, loving church family as much as anyone else, and I hope you’ll look a little more and find one somewhere.

  97. Carol,

    That’s why I wrote what I did.

    My initial point was for the anti-Christian bashers that think that the rules of bankruptcy should apply to everyone but Dave that bankruptcy applied to him too. He owes nothing to his creditors because he suffered through the process. Paying them now won’t make his bankruptcy go away.

    Jonah Goldberg on National Review has a similar issue. He offered to bet someone about our situation in Iraq, the bet was refused. He WOULD have lost. Now he’s being called a hypocrite because he’s not paying a bet that was never made.

    And in Dave’s case, they attack Christian church goers. . . hence the Zig comment.

    Dave, by the way, does recommend bankruptcy for some people as he did yesterday on his show, but it’s something he wants you to try and avoid if at all possible.

  98. I understand what you’re saying, Ryan. I had a lot of questions about Ramsey’s story—but it seemed there were so many details I didn’t know, my opinion was not educated. Hey—a friend here at work did loan me a set of CD’s from the seminars (the Financial Peace University?), and I haven’t had a chance to start listening to them. So–see? I am trying to be fair! I’m not in a debt position, but still don’t feel prepared for a comfortable retirement, which looms before me in another ten years or so. I’m hoping for inspiration for stepping up the pace at putting money away.
    But, again, Ryan, I do understand what you’re saying.

  99. The Bible says we are to lay up treasures in Heaven not on earth. People only use God for profits and not for salvation.
    Dave Ramsey is no minister and not doing work of God
    People care only about their needs and wants not about others.

  100. I am nearly 175K in debt (back taxes, judgments, credit cards, and family debts). I am willing to try the Ramsey method with 30K income. MY credit is already bad so delaying payments a little longer will not hurt anymore. It’s only a matter of time a wage garnishment will take affect. Ramsey suggests tackling the smallest debt first. Should I contact the people that has a judgment on me and offer a monthly payment and still concentrate on the smallest debt? Or should I just wait for them to find me? I appreciate any/all input.

    KJ

  101. So a number of years ago Dave’s (ahem) Company starts doing really WELL. Dave buys himself a Jaguar-cash..buys himself a Lake-House..cash, buys a number of jet-ski’s.
    -A couple of weeks ago, I heard dave on his radio show talking to a small business owner that said (the business owner) makes $260,000 a Year. In which dave replies– “well I make quite a bit more than you do”. There was alot of PRIDE in dave’s voice.
    – His company has alot of turn-over.
    This whole thing of storing up treasure– you have to ask the questions. I am not against successful people having stuff– but there is a point of Ridiculous!

  102. I think you missed the point… just because you buy something for yourself don’t make you a bad steward… did you pay your rent last month? are you bad for that?

    daves plan is simple… grandmom did it for years… spend less than you make, avoid debt. save… buy stuff only when you have cash, no credit.

    live within your means.. .

    and sure, if you saved, you can get yourself something nice sometimes… but give too… he does say give..

    not a bad plan at all..

    so tell me, hows YOUR plan working so far? are you debt free? got money in the bank?

  103. KJ, I would recommend you call Dave’s show.

    You might be an instance that he would recommend bankruptcy.

    If not bankruptcy, then definitely negotiation/settlement.

    I cannot imagine having to live off $30k, pay income taxes, etc, and still payoff that much debt (assuming mortgage is not included in that).

  104. Ryan,

    Thanks for your input. I listened to Dave a few days ago and a woman called in who was in similar situation as me (200K debt and making 30K). Dave advised her to do her very best to avoid bankruptcy. She must first take care of the living essentials such as food, shelter, etc. And once she is able to save enough, she should try to make a settlement offer starting with the lowest debt. Since my credit is already bad, the settlement option sounds positive. I want to try to avoid bk. 95% of my debt is unsecured….I don’t have to worry about losing anything materially. I know this will be extremely hard to do but I know that this will one day past.

    KJ

  105. Ryan,

    Thanks for your input. I listened to Dave a few days ago and a woman called in who was in similar situation as me (200K debt and making 30K). Dave advised her to do her very best to avoid bankruptcy. She must first take care of the living essentials such as food, shelter, etc. And once she is able to save some money, she should try to make a settlement offer starting with the lowest debt. Since my credit is already bad, the settlement option sounds positive. I want to try to avoid bk. 95% of my debt is unsecured….I don’t have to worry about losing anything materially; however, I know that more than 50% of the debt cannot be discharged so bk will probably not be the right thing to do. I know this will be extremely hard to do but I know that this will one day past.

    KJ

  106. This may have totally been covered in the comments above but who in the heck has time to sort through 124 of them!

    My comment: You’ve got Dave all wrong. Sure the line is “Live like no one else so later, you can live like no one else.” Sure Dave says it’s cool to buy some stuff as long as you pay cash. What Dave also says is that giving is the most fun you can have with money. What he also says is that the main purpose behind building wealth is to be able to give a ton of cash away to help people less fortunate! I’m not saying that $30 per month is not going to make a difference. What I am saying is that, assuming those people have been working the plan (sounds like they have been) then they’re already giving a lot of money away! They’re already living a sacrifical life!

  107. Re. bankrupcy, I’m not so interested in what someone did 20 yrs ago. He is very good at what he does, teach people in an entertaining way to get out of debt. For this I commend him. What I have no use for is his mean spirited political statements. At the San Antonio seminar last weekend he wove into his talk about how he disliked illegal aliens and also a comment about “the terrorists with rags on their heads”. Also last month I paid for a month on his website forum and almost immediately came across a very racist thread (the essence was how African-Americans will get Caucasians in trouble at work). I complained to the moderator twice (both times ignored), then upon cancelling my subscription I was asked why and so responded that I felt the site was racist. Again, no response from anyone. So if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then by golly…..(And by the way, he has the right to believe and say what he wants, just don’t ask me to pay to hear this drivel).

  108. When Dave Ramsey says “live like no one else…” what he is actually saying in the second part of his statement (and this is really clear if you listen to him for a second or two) is that part of “living like no one else” (when your debt free and rich) is that you can then take care of yourself AND give away as much money as you want. He does not advocate spending your money 100% selfishly. He definitely wants people to be generous with their money. However, if you don’t get your finances in order you can’t help that poor person in Ethiopia or wherever they may be. He wants good people to be rich so they can help the poor people out (because the bad people who are rich certainly won’t).

    BTW, global warming is just a bunch of hogwash – it makes a few people really rich and the rest of us poor – all the while mother nature will do as she pleases regardless of us humans!

  109. maybe they are great stewards, you dont know that because that was not what the topic was about. It was about $30.00 of probably over $1000.00 available in a DEBT FREE budget. What you are doing is saying that Dave nor the couple he was speaking with are not good stewards because of $30.00 dollars. You my friend are trying to do gods work, CASTING JUDGEMENT. If you dont listen to Dave, its because he hit a sore spot in your life or made you confront your own denial. That seems more like a valid reason for your comments than anything you have said. And just saying hes wrong and leaving it at that, you can continue to live your life of denial.

  110. I can see why you’d take that opinion but I have been listening to Dave for two years and one thing that always stands out to me is his enthusiasm for being able to give when your money isn’t tied up in debt..He is a big advocate of giving,It excites him and thats part of “living like noone else” he’s also said so that you can “give like noone else” and also he gets excited about being able to change your family tree.so many people now adays have nothing to pass down to their children and grandchildren..no inheritance of any kind..often they leave behind loads of debt..Dave loves the idea of being the ones in your family to change all that and to be able to retire with dignity and not have to eat alpo esp.after working hard all your life..You want something to show for it..you want to enjoy your retirement and not fret about bills at a time like that..I believe Dave has avery healthy attitude about all of the ways we should use wealth.

  111. Carrie, I appreciate your comment, but I don’t think there is a need to use other examples to defend Dave. My point in the above post is that his response to this particular lady in this circumstance was troublesome to me and I found that is wasn’t leading me to further follow Christ and make sacrifices, but to pat myself on the back for being wise and thus spend more on myself.

  112. I understand the concern to be a good steward. However, if we all took that draconian view, I doubt any of us would feel comfortable sitting in our churches. Even the modestly priced buildings would loom as extravagant if placed side by side the hovels of a third world economy. Then, should Christians feel ashamed if they are not poor? If this were the case, I dare say that we should all give up our homes, as long as there is one lonely child straving in the street. I think I’ll continue to admire Dave Ramsey and keep it all in perspective.

  113. You guys are WEIRD! People that file bankruptcy have simply put themselves in a position where they owe more than they make in income. They borrow to pay for things they can’t afford, then when they realize they can’t pay, they want to blame someone else!

    I can’t believe all the negative comments about simply NOT OWING ANYONE! Oh…I think I just figured it out….most people that can’t pay their bills are just jealous of the ones that have enough discipline to make purchases of things they can afford (pay cash).

    It comes down to this…if you pay CASH for every purchase, you wont need to file BANKRUPTCY!

    One last thing…please don’t mix words like Jesus, Bible, Christianity, Religion in the same sentence where you are preaching that you are refusing to pay debts you agreed to pay!

  114. I think you’re being a bit judgmental.
    I’ve listened to enough Dave Ramsey to believe he would not espouse what you say as “once you’ve paid off your debt and saved your money you can spend it on what you want to.” Regarding the lady with the minivan and SUV, she might already be giving 50% of her money to hungry children. Do you know? No, but you assume …

  115. John,

    My intent was not to judge Ramsey, but was pointing out that in that interview, which you can listen to, he clearly tells her to not worry about something, which she already had a genuine concern for. It’s not that he’s telling people to spend frivolously, it’s that he discouraged someone from the direction of sacrificial living that she was attempting to live.

    And I don’t know if she already gives 50%. Does that matter?
    You assume that it does…

  116. Hypocrite. Why are you wasting your time on this blog giving your worthless opinion. You could spend that time working at Pizza Hut so you could have an extra $200 a week to give to the poor.

    Over zealous fanatics that over analyze and judge others like you are the reason most people are turned off by religion. WWJD? Probably not be as self righteous and judge other people by the standards YOU created.

    I’m sure I’m not polite enough to be published. So, I’ll just tell you, you are an idiot.

  117. I stopped posting here a while ago, but I still get the updated comments in my email from this post, and I just couldn’t sit back and not reply to that last commenter. That was such a hurtful comment you left, Brent. In just a few sentences, you called the blogger a hyprocrite, self-righteous, judgmental, and an idiot. I think all of these are unfair to call him and I’m sad that that is the contribution you want to make to this discussion. Can we instead build each other up? The writer of this blog is not trying to judge anyone, he is simply trying to figure out how Jesus wants us to live, which should be the great search of all our lives. We live because of Jesus and our lives should be dedicated to Him, and he is justing trying to figure out where finances fit in. I know from personal experience that the writer of this blog has touched many, many people’s lives and pushed so many people into a closer walk with their Savior, and God has used this blog to do incredible things already. And that he has been faithful with what God has given him and has been practicing what he preaches.

    I just hope that you will know that there is an individual at the other end of these comments, with real feelings, who is genuinely seeking after God, and your comment Brent seemed very hurtful to me.

  118. Zach,

    I admit I lashed out in anger when I read this post. I’m wrong for doing that and didn’t set out with the intention of hurting anyone.

    I’m not even a Dave Ramsey fanatic. I do live in the same city as he does and have bumped into him a few times over the last 10 years. I don’t know him personally, but know those that do.

    I don’t agree with Dave on everything he says, but one thing about it, he was an extraordinary person before he was “Dave Ramsey” and had the media following him around. He is a real person that touched many lives even before the start of the Dave Ramsey Show.

    That said, it’s hard to paint the author as anything other than judgmental. Obviously he made some judgment to decide not to listen and post on his blog for others to learn of his choice. When you look at what brought him to this decision, IN MY OPINION, it is petty nonsense that separates and turns people off from God and religion.

    The lady that called the show called for Dave’s opinion and that is what he gave her.

    The author also comments that “They didn’t need the SUV, so it wasn’t the best thing for them to do with their current finances. Praise God that she cares about the different cost of gas mileage. $30 a month could be used to sponsor a child and give life (a Kingdom Issue?).”

    I don’t agree with those among us that paint the picture of “Gain is Godliness”. But I also don’t think God has called us to squeeze every extra cent out of our budget to give. If that is the case, the author should be riding the bus. He doesn’t really need a car does he?

    I apologize for being rude in the first post. I just have a real problem for what I consider to be “toxic Christianity” and I think this qualifies.

  119. When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead.” D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.

    An unimaginable number of people have been killed in the name of Jesus. Many of you have blood on your hands… stop worrying about how you can reallocate $30.00

    On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, “making the declarations that are required” – the requerimiento – to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And “nobody objected.” If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
    “I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you … and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church … and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him.”

    D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.

  120. Oxford University press…Protestant English historians passing judgment on non-Protestant Spanish speaking explorers. Why not hold up the English explorers?! Who did the same?!! That was a weird quote. And the disease transmission worked both ways–The Columbus expedition brought syphilis back to Europe, where it spread like wildfire. The Spaniards didn’t force their faith on the New World natives, Our Lady of Guadalupe and Juan Diego had them coming begging for baptism…conversion of millions, much huger than Pentecost. That image shows the conquering of the old deities. I am sure they preferred their new faith to the old gods who required huge numbers of living human sacrifices and cannibalism. The blood ran down the steps of the temples and into the streets. It was disgusting.

    Re: original post–I’m not buying that argument. If you want to take a vow of poverty, you go right ahead, I respect that. However, God does not insist that everybody take a vow of poverty. Those whom I have known who have taken a vow of poverty do not judge those who haven’t. They certainly don’t look down their noses at others feeling superior about the sacrifices they voluntarily made.

    Dave Ramsey paid back every last red cent to his creditors. He doesn’t owe anyone anything. He’s answered this question before and explained what happened. He also tells others who have filed BK that they are neither morally or legally obligated to repay, so pray about it and follow your conscience. Those who claim that he tells everybody they have to repay after BK are lying or mistaken.

    He says BK and divorce and foreclosures and short sales without recourse etc. are permissible in certain circumstances when all other attempts have been made and have failed. He is supportive and sympathetic with people who suffer and challenging to those who are being hardheaded in their commitment to financial stupidity.

    People say DR teaches certain things, when he doesn’t really. He is not an absolutist. In trying to avoid BK, he helps people devise a strategy to try and dig out.

    I don’t believe in following gurus and drinking the koolaid and putting people up on a pedestal. However, he is teaching personal finance topics for common folks with money problems much better than anyone else out there. He’s done me a lot of good even though I think his investing advice leaves a lot to be desired. Hopefully a DR follower reads and learns more by the time they become investors. The point is, use what works. I have benefitted greatly from DR’s show, which is available FREE on the radio and internet, and his books are at the library. So you don’t need to spend a red cent learning what he has to say.

    (I don’t know why people have a problem with him selling books and audio of things that help people–I get paid to help people and no one complains about that. Try John Cummuta’s program and see what the deal is there and you’ll realize that DR is a deal!!! Free or cheap by comparison.)

    I will not castigate anyone who disagrees with me. In advance, I politely agree to disagree! I also do not like the tone and insults that have been posted here. It’s unseemly.

  121. wow!!!

    talk about nit pickers!!!

    apparently you guys have it way more together than I do.

    I think Dave is doing a great service to make people aware of the dangers of debt and materialism. I think maybe you have set the bar too high for common people…how bout JNTYBNJ
    judge not….

  122. You give more from a mindset of abundance than from one of scarcity. I know few tightwads who are active givers. Lighten up.

  123. As others have pointed out, Ramsey did repay his debts after bk. He didn’t do it out of legal or moral obligation. He addressed this on the radio recently. He did it because he felt God was telling him to do it. He doesn’t address this much because he doesn’t want people to feel they have a moral or legal obligation to do what he did. The law is in place that allows bk.

    What I would challenge some of the people on here about, is that bankruptcy has a tremendous affect on people other than the ones filing. I don’t give a crap about the credit card companies…but often times (especially in cases of failed small businesses), the people not getting paid are small business owners themselves. That in turn directly affects their ability to pay their bills. They provide you a good or service with the expectation of getting paid. And when they aren’t paid because you file bk, that decisions ripples on down the line.

    One more thing about DR….this dude is a multi-millionaire. I know he has a lake house (and I will too one day) and skiboat, etc. But given his financial position, it’s refreshing to see him have such a modest primary residence. You can see for yourself if you are curious. He lives in Williamson country Tennessee and property records are public:

    http://www.assessment.state.tn.us/SelectCounty.asp

  124. I have been reading the thread here, and would just like to say that if someone hasn’t actually read Dave’s books or done his Financial Peace University, with all due respect, what gives you the right or knowledge to criticize? My husband and I are doing FPU and it has been great for us.

    The sad truth is, we have been conditioned to always borrow money, buy things on credit, rather than save . Our grandparents who lived through the Great Depression knew how to save, and at least in my case lived comfortably until they passed on.

    Bankruptcy and divorce are nothing to judge people for; we all make mistakes. I think most people are trying to do the best they can. But there comes a time in life regarding your finances when you need to make decisions about how your present is affecting your future, and make smarter decisions if you aren’t debt free. Dave Ramsey offers his FPU FREE at many churches around the country, all you have to pay for are materials (around $100). And if that is a financial difficulty, your church may possibly help with that. Point is, DR could be making a lot more money on FPU if he wanted to, but I think he truly looks at this as his calling and every time someone calls his show and says “I’m debt free!” I think he gets real joy from that. Bottom line, it’s all about YOU. What are YOU going to do to better your financial situation? Bankruptcy is a solution for some, but it isn’t all that easy (we have friends going through it right now). It takes years to recover, and if it can be avoided, it should be. But, I have said my peace, only that I really like FPU, it is working for us, and I wouldn’t comment on it unless I was actually doing it. Also, I am not going to be endlessly replying to posts of folks who disagree, God Bless You and thank God we live in a free country with free speech. Peace~

  125. Liberals make me laugh.

    I would have made this post a little bit longer, but the extra 5 minutes could have been spent planting a tree to save us from our impending doom.

  126. I am 25 years old and I am in Daves program. I was planing to file bankruptcy but when I got on the plan I decided against it.

    I took FPU at a church, nobody tried to make me join the church half the people in there don’t even belong to a church for that matter so religion has nothing to do with it. Also when I started the class I couldn’t afford the $100 it cost to get the kit but the church helped me 2 months later I paid the $100 without missing a beat. Now I have money in the bank I work 2 jobs (temporarily) to honor the debt I yes I created. Dave’s program is common sense but that is not marketable in the world. I was against him actually at first. But it has changed my life more than just financially, I have a better walk with God, I don’t spend frivolously anymore, I dont use credit cards sadly my parents didn’t teach me that.

    Now because of daves program I have a future to look to a good one, I can have kids and not stress out I can have a marriage without arguements about money and be an over all healthy person because I dont stress about how i am going to live pay check to pay check. Was it worth the 100 dollars I paid!! yes yes yes. Anybody can do it but you have to want to FPU is not about being rich its about having support (like weight watchers) and people cheering you on saying you can do it, even when you think you can’t.

    Thats my story

  127. What’s the difference? Gas mileage. The topic of the environment didn’t come up, just the cost of a couple extra gallons of gas a week.

    ———————————————-
    I’m having a hard time trying to respond to the OP. I’m sure there was some additional information that would have been useful in the 90second back-and-forth, but one cannot get everything out in a radio blurb.

    There really are too many intangibles that cannot be fully accounted for. Thus no matter what we say about Dave’s Opinion (which is what was asked for by the caller), based upon the information that was given to him the opinion sounds reasonable.

    Hardly something to wrack you for more than 30-40sec while sitting at a traffic light. Really, it didn’t make me even twitch.

    It would be very easy to lean the conversation one way (pro-Dave let’s say) or the other way (pro-lady-with-a-minivan) and work hard for that mindset.

    Ariah, I do feel bad that what seems like a fairly innocent phone call concerned you so much that it caused you to enter it into this blog. I feel bad since it doesn’t appear to have the “willingness to hear”, and it puts the question from the lady and Dave’s response into a much graver category than it should have. Did you really feel that this type of interplay was enough to turn you off on the message he was putting forward? Did you truly feel that it smacked you in the ideals too hard to see how it fits with the mindset of the person rendering the opinion? I’m good whichever way you go on this question. I tried to take it at face value, and I didn’t get the feeling of a large moral dilemma. Perhaps you could, even after almost 2 years, add more to your feelings on this particular stance. I’ve read all of the posts but I keep trying to dismiss your feelings as a true misunderstanding. I’d like to talk further if there was something else that I missed.

    I understand the concern you must have felt for that additional $30.00 the caller was discussing, and the blatant waste which was coming from the $30.00 getting burned out on the highway. Everything starts small in this world. Saving the planet will start small too (I’ve got the CFLs installed at home as part of my step 1 checklist).

    Here is a personal opinion of my own. I really, truly believe that Dave was being fair with the caller. In the grand scheme of things $30 per week ($1560.00 per year) isn’t going to make or break anybody that is truly debt-free. I can no more assume that the caller’s husband was being selfish or playing with idolatry regarding the SUV, than I can assume the caller’s intentions for the $30.00 weekly savings.

    If the husband wanted the SUV as an “image car” then it would have added a whole new line of depth to the callers question. If the caller wanted to get an extra pedicure with the money each month we would have more depth again.

    Another opinion I have which is shared by Dave Ramsey: By taking responsibility for your own finances, staying out of debt, and living within your means, you will be able to help others in ways that you had never considered possible.

    I see alot of “IFs” in those preceding two paragraphs. Who is to say for sure, how to we really know without speaking to the caller and her husband. Again, if there was some underlying feeling that made you take pause and write about this specific call, let me know. I take away from it the same thing I do from the hundreds of people that talk to this guy every week:

    Behavior modification and confidence in oneself are the two most important ideals to take away from Dave Ramsey. God has always wanted us to keep our personal house in order, and that way we are better able (spiritually, financially, and physically) to help, guide, and mentor others toward the goal of getting their own house in order.

    He is a common-sense, kind-hearted person who has a gift for motivating people. Motivational speakers are well known because they are good at motivating people! 🙂 Dave is the pill that did it for me. The Radio show isn’t the same “community” as you get when you are in a group for Financial Peace University, but hearing all of those radio folk get some hope up and do something over and over and over again does help!

    Grandma had some great advice. Why don’t we listen to her anymore? 🙂 If it takes some people a Dave Ramsey to wake up and hear their grandmother in their thoughts, I feel that it is truly a worthwhile price to pay.

    The costs borne by Social Security and Medicare could easily be paid for by average citizens with a saving mindset and a penchant for giving. Not just giving with money, but also their time and their hearts.

    Most government social programs would really (yes really) be rendered superflous if everybody attempted to help their fellow man. That flows across ALL religions (unless there is an acetic-loner religion I’m not privy to), and also speaks to a non-religious person with the same fervor.

    I’m fully aware the soapbox will instigate controversy. That is why the tags are there, so we are clear that this is a separate part of the same blog entry.

  128. — REGARDING THE BK THING:

    Recently somebody called the Dave Ramsey Show and posed the “BK moral dilemma” to Dave in a kind way.

    “If somebody goes out and wracks up a bunch of debt, how can they go around and get settlements for the balances, or filing BK? Shouldn’t they have a moral obligation to pay back their debts in full”?

    Daves response indicative of others listed above, and was grounded in the scripture. I’m not well verse in the Bible so I will paraphrase from memory.

    Basically Dave said it is in the heard of the creditor to forgive the debt. The debtor has no real say in the matter. Recently he had the owner of a business that he worked with step into his office. The guy owed Dave’s company $30,000 for services that had been paid for but not received. He went in and explaned the fact that he had been dealt a series of blows. For one reason or another his wife had left him (I cannot go into the specifics of that, perhaps he was an adulturer, perhaps she was, dunno), he has maxed out his options to the hilt and had nothing else he could give.

    He asked if it was possible to settle the debt for the $5000 or $6000 the guy had available, cuz he wasn’t able to come up with any more.

    Dave settled with the guy, and by doing so said this to all of us: I had two choices, either I could stand in line with a bazillion other creditors and get basically nothing, or I could accept his offer and settle the debt.

    From a financial standpoint it was the right thing to do. 5K os better than zero-K. Also since he did take the risk of doing business with this guy, he did shoulder some of the risk. This is tied directly to the credit card companies. You do sign on the dotted line, but I’ll have words with anybody that thinks a CC dept only sends out offers to people who can realistically pay down the credit they are offered. So the credit card companies and many other lending institutions have part of the blame for a customer not staying current. The penchant for risk is very high, and with the debt being unsecured and the credit card companies KNOW FOR A FACT that there will be a certain percentage of cardholders that will get into trouble, they are hedging their bets, and sometimes they lose.

    That is one of the main reasons it is exteremely difficult to get a loan at a local bank as opposed to getting a credit card. You have to make some attempt at showing you can pay back a bank loan.

    So if an individual does all they can to work with a creditor to get something paid off and there just isn’t any money left. I mean you’ve really really really tried to make it all work and you are looking at a judgement. There is nothing wrong, both spiritually, morally or otherwise to call up those lawyers who are suing you and offer a settlement IN FULL. They can refuse and take you to court if they wish, but many times they will settle out.

    By accepting the settlement the debtor is RELEASED FROM PURSUANTS OF THE ORIGINAL DEBT!

    Please understand that before we get to this point, the indivdual (if following Dave’s advice) would need to have done everything possible within their realm to get this debt paid off. Right up to selling the kids. Two jobs, three jobs, whatever you can do.

    If you have really, truly, believe-it-down-to-the-bottom-of-your-heart done all that you can to pay the debt in full, you can work on a settlement deal.

    Chapter 7 bankruptcy (total liquidation) is much less common these days when compared to Chapter 13 (the payment plan by a judge series). If your life is so upside down that you qualify for Chapter 7, I sincerely hope your heart understands what is being given to you and that you make 100% effort to stay out of BK once you are released.

    For chapter 13 the change in mindset is somewhat easier, since you have a payment plan set down by a judge. You an still fall into patterns of bad behavior, something that you would be much less willing to fall into if you really tried very very hard to avoid the BK in the first place.

    Let me say this: there will always be some time where somebody is just cruising forward in life and then life smacks them. Whether it is illness, or a car accident, or loss of a spouse, it is very possible that the devestation is so great that somebody may never be able to overcome all of the financial debt that is wracked up. Bankruptcy, in this type of situation might be a possibility.

    It is very possible this is what happened to an earlier blogger “May”. Assumptions were made on both sides of the argument without alot of details, so it is difficult to say if May was just extremely unlucky or if she took advantage of the system.

    My bet is on the former and not the latter. Again, I cannot say for certain.

    Notice I didn’t say anything about “deadbeats” or something about a lady with “her 5th child with the 3rd different father” yadda yadda. These people aren’t working as hard as they can to avoid the BK. These aren’t the people I’m talking about. These people have far more problems to deal with before we can confront their need for a Bankruptcy.

    So the important part to realize is that we are taking about INTENT before we talk about actual bankruptcy. Personally I’ve never been privy to a BK that resulted from bad luck and or good intentions gone horribly wrong. I’ve witnessed three of the “too lazy to pay their bills” type, which had people keeping their same spending and debt habits right thru the BK and after the release as well.

    Only one (my aunt) has undergone more than one BK. She is quite distinctly on the “lack of responsibility” end of the spectrum, and all of her BKs came before the law was changed.

    So there you have it folks, there is morality slapped on all sides of the Dave Ramsey, settlement, BK issue.

    May feels in her heart that BK was truly the only way out in her specific situation. I’ll certainly grant her the benefit of the doubt.

    They (congress) didn’t invent the legal concept of BK for deadbeats, it’s just that the majority of those that take a BK are deadbeats (yes my own unscientific opinion). It is warranted in some situations.

  129. Ren,

    First of all thanks for your comment. You helped cross the 150 comment mark, which is pretty impressive. Though, as you noticed, a lot of the comments have nothing to do with the original post.

    I really really appreciated what you had to say. I think you are honestly probably right that I was too harsh in my criticism based on a brief radio blip. I will say that I hadn’t intended this blog post to be as popular as it has, nor did I expect the sort of harsh attitudes that many commenters have felt. I really agree that Dave’s advice is something a lot of people need to take and it can bring them a long way, since so many people are struggling with debt and making ends meet.
    My thought on this brief radio piece and other times I’ve heard him (and I’ve read his book) still stand that I’m weary of the statement “…so you can live like no one else.” in what it implies. I would love to see Ramsey encouraging people to be radical givers even after they’ve paid off their debt.

    I completely agree with your closing statements:
    “Most government social programs would really (yes really) be rendered superflous if everybody attempted to help their fellow man. That flows across ALL religions (unless there is an acetic-loner religion I’m not privy to), and also speaks to a non-religious person with the same fervor.”

  130. I’m glad my comments cleared some of the fog.

    The “live like no one else” phrase can (and does sometimes) come off as rather arrogrant and elitist. One of the things I take away from it is the character of the guy who is saying those words.

    When DR says “live like no one else” he is talking about the whole basket of “good”. You are financially secure (we will leave that up to the individual to determine if they really need 9000 per month or if they could get by on 3000), are able to take care of yourself if you get sick, and have extra money or other wealth that you do not need to survive.

    Not having to worry about bills takes a HUGE load off ones mind. Once that is out of the way the process of helping others (which you should be doing all along in the process already) has much more impact.

    The hairy issue is that once you DO have plenty of money to exist and help others with, shouldn’t you consider the higher aspects of your existence on this planet? This is where your comment about the SUV has some meaning to me.

    If I was able to afford a Toyota Prius I’d pick up one of those rather than another gasoline-only vehicle.

    I’d still consider a SUV, but I’d get one that is able to use Biodiesel. I’d pay for the conversion of an S-10 truck to use recyclable lead batteries. This comes from my own personal commitment to limiting my footprint on this planet.

    I must be honest in that my family is not planning to move to a two room hut out on the plains once we are debt free, but we aren’t thinking of a $700,000 home with five bathrooms, marble floors and the other accoutrements either. I am also not ready to ditch my cars completely. I fight with the reality of the world I live in each day, using my electricity gained from a coal fired power plant (almost all power here in Iowa is from coal).

    I agree with you that the mindset of others in this world does not fit very well with my ideals on day-to-day living. Sponsoring a child, giving money to the local Gospel mission, helping serve food at the shelter and delivering groceries to housebound elderly neighbors are all things that fit into the category of “we must do much more”. It’s back to helping your fellow man, giving them hope, giving of yourself with your only reward being the satisfaction that you were able to make a difference in somebody’s life for the better.

    There are many things I would expect of a human being as a matter of course, and those expectations to increase when somebody has become debt-free. With great power (or security) comes greater responsibility. I know if I was in the original caller’s shoes I wouldn’t be haggling over $30.00 until I had already completed many of the things I’ve listed above (and more).

    If I was debt free I’d be able to pay cash for the SUV, and consider giving the older van to somebody who really needs a car.

    Sorry if this post is a little all-over, was not proofread due to time constraints! 🙂

  131. “Live like no one else, so later you can live like no one else”

    Isn’t this phrase pretty straight forward? Dave’s program teaches people to sacrifice in order to reach their financial goals. For a guy making $100,000 a year, it is a sacrifice to deliver pizzas on the weekend. It’s the carrot in front of the donkey. It’s setting goals and sacrificing to achieve them. That’s it. Nothing wrong with that.

    Some of you have a bigger problem with “being wealthy” than you do with Dave Ramsey. If you make money legally and morally and give God what is required, what business is it of mine what you do with your money? You can buy an entire fleet of SUVs if you want. Anyone think King David or Job lived poor?

    It also amazing to hear those saying, “If I had money or if I was debt free, I’d do this and that.” Really? If you were going to be such a good steward of those resources then I wonder why God hasn’t seen fit to bless you or trust you with those things thus far?

    When many of us pray the Lord’s prayer, “lead me not into temptation” , we just prayed ourselves out of money. God Bless those that are able to handle the responsibility of wealth. Most of us…..not so much.

  132. Some of you have a bigger problem with “being wealthy” than you do with Dave Ramsey. If you make money legally and morally and give God what is required, what business is it of mine what you do with your money? You can buy an entire fleet of SUVs if you want. Anyone think King David or Job lived poor?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    It may sound like I’m in the “problem with being wealthy” category, but I assure you I am not! 🙂

    Remember King David and Job were never poor in the scriptural or Dave Ramsey sense. They weren’t broke either. Even if David or Job had no money, they wouldn’t be poor, just broke.

    Poor, as you may have heard, is a state of mind. You can live richly without alot of money. The money does make the living considerably easier, secure, and more exciting. 🙂

    I do happen to harken from the viewpoint that some forms of excess are above and beyond my personal boundaries. A fleet of SUVs would not suit me personally, but I do understand where you are coming from. It is always a difficult question to pose to anybody, whether you have given enough or have you consumed enough?

    The environmental, thrift and ability to do more with less translates into my personal physical life as well as my financial life. Yes, I’m a tree-hugging do-gooder! 🙂

    My beliefs with regard to our materialism form the basis for my desire to shrink my footprint on this earth. Remember, with power (or security) comes great responsibility. It is difficult to say, as we have discussed earlier with the $30.00 and the SUV, whether more “good” would be done by the purchase than by not purchasing. In the end it is all a grey area.

    Let me pose this thought: Picture (if you can), J.P.Morgan and John D. Rockefeller and Andrew Carnegie all sitting together for a picture.

    The material wealth that these three men accumulated over their lifetimes is (adjusted for inflation to 2006 dollars) well over 600 BILLION DOLLARS.

    That’s over half of a TRILLION DOLLARS in today’s terms. And we all know of the huge amount of philanthropy that these three and their decendants performed with all of this wealth. The figures are staggering.

    At the same time, I have to take a very VERY hard look at how those figures gained the wealth that they ended up giving away. The coal mines and the steel factories in Pennsylvania were harsh to say the least, plain deadly at most. Scores of working poor/broke people performed the backbreaking labor at a pittance since union laws were nonexistent at the time. Riots ensued, personal security used guns on the workers.

    Rockefeller performed much of his “squeezing” at the corporate level, by shutting out competitors and engaging in unfair business practices to gain a monopoly on the petrol industry. There is even proof that research into ethanol/alcohol and biodiesel engines was suppressed to keep the market for crude oil intact.

    I really have to take a step back and wonder if the ends justified the means? Maybe Morgan, Carnegie, and Rockefeller were blessed by God to do what they were created to do (make money, give away), and the suffering of the others was part of God’s plan? It’s a hard question to grapple with, along with Mother Theresa when you think about giving of your heart.

    (ok, that was a long thought to ponder, but I wonder if all of that wealth could have been acquired without all of the pain)?

    It is a very grey area, where to some a fleet of SUVs is over the top, and to another just driving a new(er) vehicle might take the prize.

    I am of the mind that for me personally, modesty in my life is the best way to live. Not only is it cheaper, and has less impact, but it is a faster trip to “baby step #7”. If I had a Hummer I wouldn’t be driving it for somebody else to see me and go “Hey, that guy is successful”. I’d drive it becuase I really go off-roading in northern Canada and need the extra clearance. 🙂

    It is an exaggerated example, but it illustrates my point. I personally cannot see a need for a fleet of SUVs (or other seemingly extravagant objects), but I would hope that the individual(s) who desire a fleet of SUVs would do some “good” with them. Hard to say what that may be, but if the heart is there, it will get taken care of.

    Usually the person who truly follows Dave’s advice on giving would have blown thru enough cash giving it away before they reached their “fleet-of-suv” stage. Or found some other way to make an impact on their fellow man that would far exceed what posessing of a fleet of SUVs.

    Some people out there do not see virtue in living modestly, and are content with living within your means. Both are admirable goals, and far exceed what the normal individual can achieve with their mass of credit card debt.

    To quote Dave: “Hello, my name is Dave, and I like stuff”. “Stuff is great, get yourself some stuff! But don’t let stuff become your God”. Again, if the heart is there, it will get taken care of.

    I hope these aren’t too long for anybody.

  133. My goal is to be debt free and financially indepentdent. I have some charities I want to give to and my new car would be an economy car. I have no desire to be extravagant.

  134. We have become debt free recently after 2 years of “gazelle intensity” I must say it feels great and the best part is that while we are not yet wealthy by any means we are in a position to give now and that is definately the best part.

  135. I partially agree. I say partially because you have put too much emphasis, IMHO, on saving the environment, sponsoring kids, hugging trees and such. To quote bono…you can’t throw your arms around the world. You can’t do it all. But I do think you need to do something! Generally someone who can swing the payment for a new SUV could ALSO sponsor a kid.
    My issues with Ramsey are much more direct. Let me illiterate.
    -He is a jerk…plain and simple.
    First of all on a national level. He rails at people and calls them stupid, and tells them they are doing stupid things. Hey Dave…little hint…someone is SO effed up financially that they call YOUR pathetic show and tell the nation that they are effed up, they already know they did stupid stuff. They don’t need you telling them how stupid they are. Especially someone with the record of failure that you toted around for so long. My guess is your realtor daddy called you stupid when your life was unravelling and you just think thats how you should deal with people.
    He behaves this way and then gives his phony homage to Jesus at the end of his 3 hour rant-fest by saying “you can never know peace until you know the Prince of Peace”. I’m guessing he took WEEKS to think up that clever rejoinder. Also, on a more local level…I live in nashville…ask around town and find out what people who deal with this jackass every day think about him. He is an arrogant ass.
    -He ripped off everything he ever had to say from Larry Burkett.
    Everything…the little envelopes, the snowball of debt, the money map. Larry Burkett did this stuff in the very early 70’s and did it in a compassionate, kind, Christlike manner. Ramsey barely tips his hat to a TRUE Christian, Larry Burkett. Yet he would still be peddling bad real estate if not for discovering Burketts book.
    Ramsey repackaged it and sold it like Ron Popeil…wait I take that bakc. Popeil has Integrity.
    -For all his talk, he tailors his advice to fit the needs of his multitude of sponsors.
    Face it…the guy is a whore. He’d sell a video of him shaving his head if he could find a sponsor for it. This is a man who tells people daily to have a garage sale, sell everything they have, drive a 20 year old car, work three jobs, don’t go on vacations, but don’t you DARE try to sell your house yourself! Why? Because one of his biggest sponsors is a realtor. (The lack of integrity must be the mutual attraction) His parents were realtors…HE was a realtor. And if you listen to him for even 10 seconds, you realize he still thinks like a realtor…the remoras of humanity.
    He SELLS his “money makeover / financial peace university kit to people who are BROKE (and stupid, according to Dave) for almost $200. People who don’t actually HAVE $200. I always wanted to order my Financial Peace kit and pay with a credit card just to piss him off, but I realized Dave would take my money if it was Euros.
    Here’s the kicker. A friend of mine went to his web site desperate for help. She found that in order to use ANY of the resources on the site, she had to PAY $10 per month subscription fee!! She was broke! This guy is such a money grubbing sleazebag it sickens me. He is for sale…period. He tells people how stupid they are because he needs them to be stupid in order to keep shlepping them his garbage.
    I won’t even get into all the intentionally bad information he doles out daily in order to steer people to his favorite mortgage company or realtor or PAWN SHOP! yep…he’s in bed with a PAWN SHOP. He probably owns a trailer park too, but won’t admit it publicly.
    I detest this clown. Go by Burkett’s books and sink this poser.

  136. In response to Craig:

    I (don’t) hate to nitpick, but in your post you said that “My issues with Ramsey are much more direct. Let me illiterate.” I’m not sure if this was a bit of a Freudian type slip but I think you give yourself away in any event. The rest of your rant illustrates my point.
    Yes, Dave tells people that they are being stupid. Most of the time they are being stupid. What he is doing is bluntly telling people who are blind to their out of control spending what they are doing. Surprisingly some people still don’t get it when he tells them, and just as surprising some seem to finally get it.
    Yes, Dave endorses people and sells things. I’m not sure where you got the idea that a man shouldn’t make money but this is Dave’s job. He sells this set of ideas and the tools that go with it. Additionally he has decided to put his name on products he believes in. I see no reason to question that. If you like what he says you may like the business people that he endorses. You may not though, and to my knowledge there is no Dave force demanding fealty from his listeners.
    Also, if you listen to Dave enough or get his books you would know that he promotes sharing his plan and materials. He asks people to pass it on to others in need of it, and even to copy the budget forms and give them away. As long as your not selling it he is fine with helping others.
    And it is unfortunate that your friend didn’t look more closely at the website. There are many free tools to use there, including a basic outline of his ‘baby steps’ and a budget form. Additionally you can find basic information about the other things he says. You can also call his show for advice for free and use a pen and paper do your own budget.
    My husband and I actually got into Dave’s message by being given The Total Money Makeover and Financial Peace. I’ve used his free budget but prefer my own stationary.
    Dave frequently mentions Burkett, whom I am unfamiliar with in total, and credits many of his favorite sayings to him. He also makes it clear that if you were to ask any old and/or rich person you would likely get the same basic advice. There are few truly original ideas out there. What this man does is motivate people to change their lives and gain freedom from debt. He has made a great deal of money doing this and has helped a great number of people for free as well. I can’t find fault with that. But, I have the ability to think through things and come to my own conclusions too. Perhaps you need a bit of help in that department. No, offense meant, but you might not be so angry with Dave if you could take the good and not feel obligated to align yourself with the parts you feel are bad.
    ..If your friend still need help she should go back to the website and try the free tools, they really may help.

  137. @Craig – I live in Nashville too. It sounds like you have ran into an entire multitude of people that think Dave is arrogant. I’d love to meet a few of them.

    I wonder if you ever ran into the little ole’ lady that met Dave before he was on the radio. She met him because he bought her house after it was foreclosed on. Turned out, her drug addicted daughter has illegally mortgaged the house to buy drugs.

    When Dave found out, he paid the legal bills to straighten the mess up, gave the lady her house back, and took care of her the rest of her life.

    As far as recommending his listeners use a Realtor, do you think the average person can price, market, and sell their home? I don’t. Realtors go to school for a reason. Would you fault him for advising his listeners to use a doctor rather than trying to practice medicine themselves?

    For every ten people I have heard him call stupid…and I have, I’ve heard another 50 that he hasn’t. People are different and have to be approached from different angles. Some people are stupid and need to be told so. Otherwise, they’d keep down the same destructive path they were on.

    I believe the Dave Ramsey plan is by far the best. A few years ago, I had a potential customer contact me about a product I was selling. It was clear she was looking for a “Get Rich Quick – Save All” deal and that wasn’t what I was offering. She was very forthcoming and told me she was on the verge of bankruptcy. I couldn’t in good conscious sell her a product knowing she was in a very tight spot and I wasn’t offering the “fix all method” she was looking for. Instead, I offered to send her a free copy of one of Dave Ramsey’s books titled “Financial Peace Revisited” provided she promised to read it. She agreed and I sent the book.

    We spoke a few times by email and eventually lost touch. Almost 6 months later, I got this email from her that I have hanging on my office wall today.


    Hi, Brent!

    It’s been quite a while now, but I wanted to give you an update. I can’t even begin to thank you enough for sending me the book Financial Peace Revisited . It has absolutely changed our lives! After reading it, I got really pumped and then became one of those spouses that constantly yaps, “Well, Dave says…” 🙂

    Although there is not a local radio station where I live that carries Dave’s program, I download it every night onto my ipod and listen when I’m out for my morning walk/run at 5:30 am. I know… kinda nerdy… but it definitely keeps me motivated! My parents bought us tickets for his live event in Dallas for my birthday. That was just this past Saturday. My husband and I had an absolute blast!!! He is an awesome speaker! Afterward, he did a book signing, so I got his signature as well as my pic taken with him!

    My husband and I have also just started Financial Peace University at a local church. We’ve only been to two classes, but we are really excited about it. Since you sent me the book, we are on a budget… I’ve tweaked it a lot over the last few months. We have knocked out about $5,000 in debt and by the end of April we should have hopefully another $5,000 or so knocked out. I’m amazed at how much more money we “found” when we started “spending every dollar on purpose.”

    I just wanted to tell you how awesome I think you are… I can never ever ever truly express my appreciation and gratitude… your act of kindness has changed my life. My marriage will benefit and our kids will absolutely 100% benefit. Thank you thank you thank you from the very bottom of my heart!

    God Bless!!!

    Kristine Jxxxxxxxx

    So for every person you find that he called stupid, I bet I can find 50 like Kristine.

  138. You have a point…for every person Jesus Christ called Stupid, there were fifty…oh wait, He never did, did he???
    Who are you kidding? It’s obvious you are a Ramseyite drinking the Dave-ade. The guy is an obnoxious jackass. Being in the mortgage business, I deal with people every week who have become frustrated trying to save 20% of a $2000000 home purchase. Thats not at all a lot of house in this market and trying to scrimp together $40,000 takes years and years all the while the prices keep going up. so they drink the Ramsey kool aid, have no credit scores and never quite get the down payment he suggests. The only program out there for people who have no score is FHA, and of course Dave detests PMI so they won’t do that either. Oh and by the way…why doesn’t he mention his ownership interest in the mortgage company he pitches every 20 minutes on his show?
    As for Realtors selling the house. Daves comments concerning “never sell your own home” came as a direct result of a marketting plan that my company used with GREAT success in Nashville. We provided professional signage, a website to show the homes, an 800 number with pre recorded messages, we did all the work took all the pictures wrote the narratives. We charged ZERO for this…NOTHING. We even had a realtor do an ACCURATE CMA (the average realtor couldn’t comp a house if you put a gun to his head) and all for free. We were cutting into the realtor market here in middle tn so deeply that the local realtors had to run a counter ad, trying to frighten people into using realtors. Claiming everything from the potential for fraud to the nuclear waste in your backyard that nobody else can see but a licensed realtor. Dave of course, being the ever vigilant stooge for those who fill his wallet, came out against the entire program. A program which would put an average of $12000 extra into the pockets of sellers of the average $200000 home. Wonderful financial sense but of course it gets shot down because Dave can’t make a buck from it. He drives FREE car while other toil at night to keep their P.O.S. running. How about Dave BUYS a car and donates his freebie?
    As for your story about the lady you gave his book to, a band aid is a band aid. She was desperate so anything would have worked. Penecillin doesn’t care how sick you are when you take it. It kills the problem. Same with basic advice. When someone is desperate anything will help. Even help from an arrogant pompous plagaristic ass who belittles people for three hours and then signs Jesus’ name to it. THAT is what sickens me the most. Give up the Kool aid dude. See the pretender for what he really is.

  139. You have a valid point. For every one person Jesus called Stupid, there were fift…oh wait…Jesus NEVER called anyone stupid.
    Put down the Dave Ramsey Kool Aid and step back from the cup dude.
    Nice warm fuzzy story but you could have sent that woman ANY book at that stage of her life and she would have been helped by it.
    In my business I deal DAILY with people whose lives are a tangled mess of stress and frustration because they worked their butt off at three jobs, neglecting their kids, never going on vacation, driving a P.O.S. car and saving every penny to get the 20% down payment that Davey boy demands. Only to find out that by the time they saved that much money the house kept going up in value and they need even MORE money. They could have gone FHA and gotten a great rate with a 3% down payment but NOOOO…Dave doesn’t approve of PMI.
    Beside all this, they don’t even EXIST on the credit bureau so they can ONLY go FHA…quite a condundrum! Try getting utilities turned on in your new home without a credit score. Cha-ching…another $500 in deposits…money that could be “working for you”.
    Nice story about the little old lady. Did Dave go back and do that for everyone whose house he bought at foreclosure? No?? Why? Because that makes for a cool story and sells books, but doing the same thing for a guy who lost his executive job and went through his savings DOESN’T??
    Every week in my business I have to clean up the “Ramsey droppings” people step in. And by the way…why doesn’t Davey ever disclose his ownership in that mortgage company he touts every 20 seconds?
    He belittles people for 3 hours and signs Jesus’ name to it…that is why I hate that jerk. Even ONE person is one too many dude. You’d see it that way if you were the one in fifty. He is an ass..plain and simple. A money grubbing sponsor whore who jumps to his masters commands.
    Listen to Crown Financials radio show sometime and see how a CHRISTLIKE financial advice show sounds.

  140. Jo…the word is aliterate. I misspelled it in my haste. It means to illustrate by example.
    My bachelors in Pre med bilogy did afford me a decnet vocabulary AND the ability to think for myself…which you called into question, interestingly enough. However, YOU are, in fact, the one who is spouting the ramsey company line and defending him like he was God’s other son, the fourth member of the Godhead.
    Typical behavior for Ramseyites. Ask people who attend his church, ask parents of kids in the league he coaches hockey in. (Which makes me laugh really really hard)Ask people who took their gold to the pawn shop he touts and found out how much more they could get elsewhere.
    It’s frightening how willingly people check their braisn at the door when they attend one of his classes…and PAY BIG MONEY for it! He is Carlton Sheets! Face it! Sheets goes on TV telling everyone how many millions he made selling real estate, but the REALLY big money came when he convinced people to kick in $400 to buy his “system” for making millions in real estate. Sound familiar? If davey boy was so concerned with the enhancement of everyones life by preaching his garbage he’d have long ago started doing it for free…or at least lowering his prices. How many millions does he need, after all? How much BIGGER a building (with his name plastered all over it of course…always the narcisist)does he need to own? How many lake houses and fancy cars? Meanwhile my friend can’t get some free resources on Daves Website?? A pox on his house as far as I am concerned. I hope he has BK number 3 soon. Then I’ll make it a point to tell him he is stupid.

  141. Craig,

    You gave yourself away on that last post bud. You hate Dave because his advice has hurt your business. Makes sense now.

    You can’t push people into more house than they can afford anymore. Nobody cares about your “sell your own home plan”. Church Hill Mortgage is killing you in Nashville. It’s tough to make a living even with a premed biology degree. Makes sense now.

    I’m far from a Dave Ramsey Kool Aid Drinker. I disagree with Dave’s advice on investing, credit cards, and several other things to name a few. I disagree with his opinions on things, but I don’t call his character into question.

    As far as pawn shops, it’s been a year since I listened, but I have heard him many times say a pawn shop is for buying and not selling.

    Either way, you aren’t worth arguing with. Your issues with Dave are clear now. Maybe you should have pursued that medical degree. I’m sorry it’s been so tough for you to compete in the mortgage business.

  142. Brent…
    actually it is you who has tipped his hand. Perhaps you defend Ramsey so vehemently because you are so much like him. Called anyone stupid lately? Singed Jesus’ name to it? I mean you basically just called me dishonest without knowing anything about me, so it wouldn’t be a stretch to see how you could be deriding people on a regular basis.
    Let’s deconstruct your lies one by one, shall we?
    First of all..Churchhill mortgage is essentially a non factor in this town anymore. When I started in the mortgage business ten years ago every 4th or 5th customer was getting a competitive quote from Churchill. Now…I can’t even remember the last time Churchill even came up in a conversation. their reputation for having rates 2 to 3 POINTS higher than the competition has eaten away at their base. Only the true Ramseyites who follow Dave like lemmings even call them anymore. They shut down their “family mortgage” division and have less than half the staff they used to.
    That was another of Daves less-than-truthful nuggets of wisdom. Paying no points and a higher rate. Sadly (or conveniently) he never mentioned how MUCH higher you should be willing to pay in trade for no points up front. Any lender would gladly trade one point up front for FOUR on the back…and of course a nice tidy chunk of that profit gets funneled to King Dave.
    Secondly…the For sale by owner program…WE NEVER CHARGED ONE DIME FOR IT…NOT A PENNY! It got mortgage leads for us, and marketing for the seller. It was a win win. I never even noticed a burp in phone calls after Dave went on air about it. In fact, most people who called found his comments as hypocritical as I did.
    Third…I’m now guessing that you are a realtor. Nobody is as expert at blaming everyone else than realtors. Well maybe alcoholics do. But then so many realtors are alcoholics as well.
    You know how many default loans I have personally written in the last ten years??? ONE. That’s right, smart guy. One person has ever defaulted on a mortgage I placed them in. Why? because I’ve walked away from making loans that would get people in trouble. I wonder what Churchills record is.
    And as for your assumption that business is down because I have been victimizing the great unwashed masses, heres the USUAL scenario from the last four or five years: Customer calls me, gets prequalified for a loan at REALISTIC numbers. They go shopping for a home and find themselves a realtor. Realtor…ever the money grubbing leach, shops them in a range about 50K over their realistic limits. When they send me a contract and I tell them they can’t afford the house, said realtor shuffles them off to their “friend” who will write a stated income or subprime junk loan and get them in over their heads. Realtor guy doesn’t give a rats ass because he is already eyeing his next sale and spending his healthy 6% commission. I have lost THOUSANDS to unscrupulous realtors in this manner. But I refused to play the game. Are there mortgage bankers like that out there? Or ask the elderly woman in Chattanooga with whom I worked for EIGHTEEN months to get her refinanced out of a chapter 13 that her unscrupulous lawyer conned her into. For a year and a half we worked with her and the trustee and finally got them paid out of the mess they were in. Nice fixed rate loan with a very manageable rate. The loan was so small I made barely enough to cover my costs, and actually lost money if you consider the time spent. But she calls me every three or four months to say hello and thank me again and tell me she prays for me. You didn’t know that story when you slammed me, did you? Absolutely…your assumption that I am one was typical Davism…assume someones stupidity, or deceitfulness to make your point in as bombastic a method as possible. Small bald men do this all the time.
    When I got into this business I promised myself that I would never forget that this is the only product that is sold where the buyer pledges his family home to buy it. That is serious. Thats why I am still around after ten years while others are selling used cars or…real estate.
    Heres a suggestion for you. buy yourself a copy of “The Little Red Book of Wisdom” by Mark DeMoss
    This book is amazing and I am proud to say I know Mark. I am not a personal friend, although I was a friend of his brother David. Mark DeMoss could buy Dave Ramsey and sell him back to his momma for a penny a pound and never miss the loss. And there is NO bombast or pompousity in this man. Nothing but humility and INTEGRITY. Read the chapter on Integrity and you will come to understand my issues with Ramsey. You cannot have a “lot of” integrity. You either have it or you don’t. Calling ONE person or Ten people out of 50 (you changed your ratios midstream so I am covering my bases) shows ZERO integrity. Not disclosing your ownership in the businesses you hawk on your radio show shows NO integrity. Claiming to espouse an ideal and a life philosophy that you say guides your every thought and decision and yet reshaping that same philosophy daily to suit the whim of your sponsors shows NO integrity. Not a lot of integrity…NO integrity.
    I don’t say this lightly…reading that book cut me to my soul and convicted me of the same integrity issues. I either have it or I don’t…I don’t have a LOT of it. Thats akin to being a lot pregnant…you either are or you are not.
    I don’t have a national radio show and a worldwide audience. If I ever do, I will strive to make sure my life lines up with my philosophy IN EVERY WAY. Not in MOST ways. I won’t SETTLE for only calling 20% of my constituents stupid “in Jesus name” I won’t call ANY of them stupid. Again…listen to the Burkett folks. (Larry passed away several years ago) THAT is integrity. 100% undiluted.
    If Ramsey didn’t claim his Christianity in the same breath as his arrogance I’d write him off as just another radio jock in love with the sound of his own voice. But he claims the Name, and he is therefore obligated to be BETTER.

  143. So prove your claim about Ramsey having an ownership interest in Churchhill mortgage. Mike is the owner. Ramsey has said many times that he doesn’t do parternships…so you are saying he is lying and is a partner in CH Mortgage? Where is your proof? Also, Dave can’t do BK #3 considering he hasn’t done BK #2…and he doesn’t owe any money or borrow money.

  144. One other thing…you’re hatred for Ramsey is ridiculous. And your facts are wrong. While he does offer his FPU kit in his on-line store for sometimes $199 (it is currently offered for $109), most people that attend FPU pay less than $100. He always charges churches less for the kit than what he offers online. And you believe he should do this for free? Each kit includes the FPU workbook (hard cover), Financial Peace revisited, all 13 lessons on CD, his budgeting software, and an envelope system. So $100 for the course and material is not all that much. Besides, you can listen to his radio show for free, check his books out from the library, and learn his whole plan without ever giving him a dollar. You seem to have a grudge because he makes money helping other people get out of debt.

  145. To Craig from N-Ville

    The points you made are for the most part not well taken
    Where do you get off slandering someone else on here when in fact your own background is a farce (farce means Lie)
    By the way Could we see a copy of that Degree you speak of??? I Think Not !! And for God’s sake learn how to spell

    Fishman

  146. It is so amazing to me at how someone can help thousands of people get out of debt and people just seem to find a way to hate him. He has changed my life, and I am thankful for what he does. I have listened to lots of the Dave Ramsey Show and I believe that most of everyone’s problem is that he is a Christian, has conservative values, and that he breathes. He has mentioned that he did repay his past debt and he also talks about how painful of an experience it was. He doesn’t paint it all over the airwaves because it isn’t important to broadcast such a ridiculous piece of information. To think he is a bad person because he charges a little money for giving such good advice at an event is even more ridiculous. How dare he?? He offers even more for free and on a daily basis.

    I heard a lady for ABC tell people to pay off their credit cards first so they can later pay their higher utility bills. That’s brilliant!! You listen to her and I’ll listen to dave. If you are offended by his matter of fact personality then it probably means you need to ear his message the most. As far as the giving up on Dave just because he told someone it was okay to trade in a mini van for an SUV, I think the point was missed completely. I doesn’t tell people not to enjoy their riches, it just says we shouldn’t have idols. They sacrificed to get out of debt and it wasn’t that big a deal if they upgraded just a bit. I betcha they are giving like they never have too, but I guess that couldn’t be brought up at a slam dave rally.

    I would also like to mention that as far as bankruptcy, what is wrong with telling someone not to make the same mistake they did? Just because he did it does that mean he shouldn’t advise against it? It is also important to note that he wasn’t in debt only $50,000, it was more like four million. I guess he is a bad guy for paying it back but not talking about it constantly.

    If you hate him then keep running your debt to the ceiling, you can just file bankruptcy, or blame the government. I would advise against it though. I guess being debt free isn’t for everybody.

  147. First of all get off your high sanctimonious horse. You don’t read “your” Bible anymore than anyone else reads theirs. Second, screw your high and mighty environmental concerns. I know you and you’re a fraud.

  148. Craig what’s the deal man? You come here tossing around accusations and make a total rear end of yourself.

    Then I find your personal blog and find a very good writer and family man that is going through a tough time. The difference between your writing here and there is night and day. What’s up with that?

    And yeah, I believe he paid cash for that 3 million dollar business. Have you visited the court house to prove otherwise or is it just more baseless accusations?

  149. FYI…
    Dave did pay off his debt after filing bankruptcy I heard him say it one day. Also in a Roth you can’t do 900 a month..5k a year limit, maybe 5500 if over 50/55.

  150. He didn’t steal anything from Burkett. He uses a lot of the same principles, and freely admits that he didn’t make any of this up…he just packaged it well. He was friends with Burkett and supports Crown ministries.

    As for the $100, yes I do think it is a reasonable cost for the course. I’ve led FPU 3 times with a 4th beginning next month. We’ve always provided “scholarships” to those that can’t afford the kit, but the truth is…they are typically the people that don’t put in the necessary work and/or effort. When you pay for something, you have a vested interest in it. I’ve talked with people who have done both free financial counseling and paid counseling, and they will never do free again because the people coming didn’t have the commitment to follow through on a plan. They wanted something quick and easy…and changing your life and habits isn’t easy.

    But why shouldn’t Ramsey make a profit? He isn’t running a non-profit organization. He’s running a business. He provides people jobs and sells products that work and benefit both sides. As people have said on here many times so far, you don’t have to attend FPU to get the material. You can get basically all the material for free by listening to his show on the radio or reading his book by checking it out at the library.

    I just don’t understand your hate for this guy. And yes, I do believe he paid cash for his current building. I believe 100% that both his business and personal are debt free. I believe that he doesn’t borrow money. I don’t believe he is a part owner in Churchhill mortgage or any other business. He doesn’t do partnerships. But prove me wrong on that one. Prove him to be a hypocrite.

  151. Sure I did. I volunteer my time for something I believe in. I am not compensated at all for leading FPU. I do it because I’ve seen it change lives, including my family. I am a huge Ramsey fan…I don’t hide that. But you make allegations without offering any proof. So please provide proof that he has ownership in Churchhill mortgage and has a mortgage on his business building.

  152. Craig,

    Since you’re smarter than the Dave Ramsey fans why don’t you go ahead and provide a link to your online source that will back up your statement that Dave has a mortgage on his plaza. I can’t imagine having information that hot and not sharing. Look at all of the headlines that would create. And you could have all the credit.

    If you are trying to prove a point to someone, you don’t make them go prove you wrong, you provide the back-up for your argument. Otherwise, you won’t be taken seriously.

  153. Pastor friend of Dave from Christ Church? Could that be Stan M.?

    Craig, you talk a lot about Dave being a hypocrite, have you compared your writing here to your writing at your personal blog? It sounds like to different people. And why would it be wrong for Dave to give his sometimes “harsh and to the point opinion” to someone that called and asked for it, but it isn’t wrong for you to give your “harsh and to the point opinion” towards Dave that didn’t ask you for it.

    I wonder if you had a problem when Jesus was “harsh” and whipped the merchants and overturned tables in the temple? Maybe he wasn’t being Christ like.

    From your personal writings, it is clear you are going through a tough time. I can only imagine how tough it was to compete in the mortgage business in Nashville when you have Dave Ramsey and Church Hill mortgage. I can understand your anger and frustration, but what you are doing here is not productive. If you wouldn’t act this way and say these things to your friends at Church then why say them here?

    As far as the mortgage on Financial Peace Plaza, if you had that information, I have no doubt you would have forwarded it to some news agency by now. If you have truly seen it who is the building deeded to? Dave personally, Lampo Group, Church Hill Mtg?

    As far as lien information being available online, you are mistaken or are being misleading. I’ve been investing in property in Middle TN for some time now and have never been able to pull up lien info. You can get property records at this link http://www.assessment.state.tn.us/ but none of these counties have ever offered lien info online.

    I hope things get better for you.

  154. So you take your toys and play somewhere else. That’s what people do when they make baseless allegations they can’t prove and have lost the argument.

  155. Craig you call Dave Ramsey and the people who follow his teaching a cult? The things that you give Burkett credit for all came from the Bible, so I guess that is your REAL problem here. I tell you what. You keep spending your life trying to disprove Dave’s plan and I will continue to get out of debt the way many thousands have before me. I am guessing that what Dave teaches hurts your business or whatever it is that you do. Dave Ramsey is helping people all across the country and people like you just can’t stand it. I guess you must be of the opinion that the Government should take care of everyone since you apparently have a problem with people changing their financial lives. Get a life dude!

  156. Craig, let me respond to one of the points you make. Calling someone stupid isn’t necessarily an un-Christian thing to do. There is a time and a place for doing that. Why do I say that? Well, Jesus did it. I searched “fool” and found lots of verses. Here are a couple: Matthew 23:17 – “You blind fools!”; Luke 11:40 – “You foolish people!”; Luke 24:25 – “How foolish you are!” Jesus saw it as appropriate to call these people fools in those situations.

  157. Zach, could you please check your citations of where Jesus used the term fools? In their entire context?
    I think if you supplied the entire text, we would all be able to see that, as Craig said, it indeed was in reference to Pharisees, etc., or other people who in essence turned away from God or refused to acknowledge the truth about the true God.
    And as far as him driving the people from the temple. That was an act of righteous indignation againt peddlars who were setting up their “flea markets” in God’s holy place of worship.
    As Craig sited, I don’t think you will EVER find Jesus demeaning people for simple mistakes or for human sins.
    Never.
    And besides, Zach. Jesus, as he was sent to earth as God, was in a position to judge people by whatever names or terms he saw fit. To this day, He is STILL the only entity with that right and power. WE are not. He has even told us so.

    That includes Dave Ramsey AND us. Tht includes anti-Ramseyits and pro-Ramseyits—-and Dave himself.

    I apologize. I’m just getting weary seeing this go on and on, but especially seeing us justify things we know are not right by siting Christ. And not even in context.

    I’m NOT jumping into the Ramsey fued—I could care less. No sides. But don’t drag Jesus into it either.

    If Dave Ramsey is using Christ in a way not fitting and honoring God—-then God will one day judge him. Not us.

  158. Hey Carol, I totally agree with what you said just now. I was just trying to respond to what Craig earlier:

    “You have a valid point. For every one person Jesus called Stupid, there were fift…oh wait…Jesus NEVER called anyone stupid.”

    I don’t want us to put words in (or take words out) of Jesus’ mouth.

  159. I am pretty much done with the cry baby routine! The hatred and anger that you spew has done nothing for your lack of an argument especially since EVERYTHING you have stated has been missing credibility. As far as I’m concerned your hatred puts you in LESS of a place to bring Jesus into the argument. Being hateful and arrogant and then accusing someone else of the same is the very definition of hypocrisy. It’s a shame someone with your writing ability has to use it in a negative and harmful manner. I hope things change for you but i am done listening to someone who makes it his job to point SOMEONE else’s problems or faults out. Maybe if you spent more time worrying about how to make your life better you would have a more fulfilling life leading you to be less likely to resort to name calling! Say what you wish to my statement. I can pretty much assume that you will be name calling and demeaning. Therefor I do not need to come back to read what I already know you will say.

    Peace,

    Yes I guess I am a Ramseyite if that’s what you like to call someone who is getting out of debt.

  160. I agree. I am not a listener of Dave Ramsey but I agree with a lot of his philosophy of getting debt free. I also do not enjoy hearing people spout things in the name of Jesus. However, Mr. Ramsey is helping a lot of people and to say the negative things about on this site is so unnecessary. It is a prime example of the pot calling the kettle black.

  161. I have no doubt that the building Ramsey is in had a mortgage on it. He has said many times on the radio that they leased their current building before he purchased it (they actually did a purchase option on it). So, does that make him a hypocrite? As for calling people stupid, I think your hatred for him makes you hear things. I have often heard him say that someone did something stupid (and as he says, he’s done stupid with zeros on the end). But saying someone has done something stupid is not the same as saying someone is stupid. I think your posts are moronic, but I don’t think you are a moron.

  162. He doesn’t have a mortgage on the building. If he did, he would be a liar. There probably was a mortgage on the building when he was renting, but it wouldn’t have been his mortgage. Again, HE DOES NOT HAVE A MORTGAGE ON HIS BUILDING. Please prove otherwise.

  163. Here is the call you were talking about:

    http://www.mediafire.com/?qz1ew1puxyd

    So after listening to how this company lied to her and put her in this position, he does say “You were stupid for buying it”. That is saying her behavior (ie, buying the timeshare was stupid…which it was) is stupid. He doesn’t talk down to this woman. As he often says, he’s done stupid with zeros on the end. It has the exact same context and meaning as saying “buying the timeshare was a stupid decision”. You really have issues man.

  164. “My argument was with Brent, who insisted that Dave doesn’t have a note on the building.”

    I don’t recall insisting Dave didn’t have a mortgage on the building. I recall asking you to prove it.

    Your idea that you could get into trouble for posting a public document is stupid. (not calling you stupid) Don’t you think you put yourself in a worse position by continuing to slander Dave’s name with no proof?

    If there was a mortgage on that business in Dave’s name, it’d be national news. You aren’t the only person his teachings and recommendations has put out of business. There’s a whole line of people that would like to find that type of information.

    At the end of the day, I think you are a great writer that lacks enough reasoning power to write factual stories. You should stick with fiction. Your pretty good at it.

    For me, I’ll say it again. I’m no Ramsey follower. Unlike you, I haven’t listened to him in months maybe even a year. I disagree with him on a few points of investing, but still think he provides some excellent guidance for those neck deep in debt.

    So you can call the man a hypocrite all you want. I wonder how you view yourself? When I visit your personal blog, I see you portraying one image to all your church friends that take time to comment. Then you come here and the transformation occurs.

    Good luck to you Craig. Hopefully you can channel this nonsense and hatred into something more beneficial to your family.

  165. “Craig said – Calling my belief that it would cause me a problem stupid IS STILL AN AFFRONT TO ME. You can candy coat it all you want, Mr. Typical Southerner, but you called me stupid when you called an action of mine or an idea I hold to stupid.”

    You say typical southerner? Really? Are all southerners typical? Do you clients know you feel that way? Maybe that’s why business is bad for you. Why don’t you be up front and post who you work for. Let’s get it out in the open.

    “Craig said – His parents were realtors so they probably mistreated him in the same way.”

    So you classify realtors all in the same post as well. Are you surprised they are not bringing you any business?

    “Craig said – Here’s SPECIFICALLY why I won’t post the info. It’s a subscription service and one of the points I agreed to when I subscribed is I would only use it for the specific purposes I purchased it for.”

    Did you purchase it to tell your clients about and post about it on blogs? How is posting the screen shot a violation of your terms but telling everyone about it isn’t. Why not just go to the courthouse and get it the old fashioned way. Its public record and you can post it anywhere you want. Put up or shut up.

    “Craig said – You’ve already heard from a regular listener to Davey boys show and he said HIMSELF he has a note on the building! He even did a lease option on it! That came from someone ELSE Brent, someone who regularly listens to Daveys show. NOT FROM ME! Second witness to the fact…Mr. Dave defender.”

    Who cares if he does! You stated you don’t even care. If Dave is really admitting to it on the air, then why are you bringing it up like it is some secret?

    “Craig said – I do have a problem with him being so adamant against ARM’s and then having one on the very building he peddles his plagiarized truffle from.”

    I’ve personally financed three commercial loans in my life. Have you every found a commercial loan that lasted beyond 5 years? If so, there is your niche. I’d love to lock my commercial properties in at these rates for the next 30 years, but that just doesn’t happen.

    “Craig said – Let me ask you something…could you really picture Jesus owning that building?”

    No. I think Jesus will have a much larger building / mansion. I think that building is more King David / Solomon style.

    “Craig said – Would he have a sign out front with his name plastered on it in 6 different ways?”

    Haven’t seen that one. I guess it could be called advertising. You should try it. It might be good for business.

    “Craig said – And Brent..if you want to imply that I don’t love and take care of my family, like you did in the last sentence of your post…give me an address and say it to my face. You typical phony southern lap dog.”

    What I implied was, “why not use this energy to improve your situation as your family will be the beneficiares.

    Are you threatening me with physical harm? Is that what Jesus would do? Would you let your church friends here you talk like that? Do your church friends know you think of them all as typical southerners or do you attend a church full of transplanted yankees?

    “Craig said – You know Brent…the last desperate action of a defeated man is a personal attack.”

    I’ll be making $200K this year. I’m not defeated nor desperate. How about you?

    “Craig said – Dave Ramsey is ONLY important to DAVE RAMSEY and his minions! Outside of Nashville and Ramseyland, he is NOBODY!”

    Someone call Oprah quick. She probably didn’t know that. You should probably tell Fox News as well.

    One thing is strange. Wonder why they play him on 300 radio stations just for the Nashville market? I didn’t know Nashville had that many stations?

    See ya later little yankee doodle dandy man…

  166. Hey…do you go to church with Dave? You guys have the same loving, graceful approach I figured you must be hearing the same sermons.
    And “little” has never been used to describe me…or my yankee doodle. You’re sort of weird Brent.

  167. What I implied was, “why not use this energy to improve your situation as your family will be the beneficiares.

    Are you threatening me with physical harm? Is that what Jesus would do? Would you let your church friends here you talk like that? Do your church friends know you think of them all as typical southerners or do you attend a church full of transplanted yankees?

    Mostly…thats why I love the place. And the southerners that attend there are true southern folk…not hillbillies who grew up in this hell hole. My church friends LOVE the way I talk. And no, I wasn’t threatening you. I was inviting you to stop hiding behind your anonymity if you are going to cast aspersions at my provision for my daughter. By the way Brent…Yankees aren’t transplanted…they come here and conquer and decide to stay.
    I was about to say that I can’t believe you actually posted your income, but then I thought about it. Why wouldn’t you? Everything else about your posts points to you being an arrogant jagger. But I wouldn’t start bragging until I hit 7 figures.
    Personally I’ll probably never make that much and I don’t really care. But why boast about making an income that a good portion of the US makes?
    Before you ask, Nope…I’ve not quite hit 200K yet annually. But I do have a three page letter from the premier pediatric orthopedic surgeon in the world, recommending me for med school and refering to me as “an asset to whatever hospital staff he will one day join”. Whenever I go home, I walk into Dr. Bowens office and he still greets me with a hug and a smile, 15 years after the fact.
    I gave that up to be a dad. So I don’t think I need any suggestions on how to channel my energies to take better care of my family.
    And where I come from, only little people threaten. I haven’t been little since 4th grade. Then again, only little people broadcast their annual incomes on the internet, like it’s going to impress anyone. But I have come to expect that, living in Lilliput.

  168. Okay Brent…try to distance yourself from your personal hatred of me for a moment, because I have a very valid and very serious point to make.
    This morning I was watching Fox and Friends, as I usually do.
    When they announced that Dave Ramsey “from the Fox Business Channel” was coming up in the next segment, I resisted my urge to switch to Sportscenter, swallowed the little taste of puke that arose in my throat and decided to listen.
    First I noticed Dave was very subdued, probably because being on Fox Business he is actually in the presence of REAL business professionals and he can’t get away with bombast and bluff. But that aside, the question arose about how safe is your money in a bank and he responded by citing the recent run on IndyMac after it was seized by the Feds. He then cited as an example, a man who had $236000 in IndyMac and lost $136000 of it because of the insurance caps. The man also said that represented his entire savings. Dave then, ever true to form regardless of whether it is Christlike, said “that was STUPID to have all his life savings in one bank…”
    Now, it was very unwise to do that, and ANY person who pays attention at all knows this to be true. But did you know that much of what IndyMac is failing on at this time are CD deposits? CD’s are typically considered the second most secure investments outside of government bonds and notes. I’m certain this guy didn’t just have a quarter million dollars in cash on depsoit with them I would bet some of it was in some form of security. Regardless…my real point is this…how do you think that man felt when he found out IndyMac was belly-up and he was losing more than half his life savings? Pretty stupid? Pretty scared? Pretty fearful about what he might have to do in his previously-prepared-for retirement? He was smart enough to have aquired $236000 in the first place, I bet he was amongst the first people to realize he made a blunder of enormous proportions. Now we are talking about one specific man. We could do a little research and find out his name because he was interviewd on TV and we know the exact amount he lost. So this wasn’t some generic story dave was throwing out there to illustrate his point. This man, if he was watching Fox this morning, KNEW INSTANTLY who Dave was talking about. And how do you think he felt when Dave pronounced his actions “Stupid”?
    What if he was sitting at his breakfast table this morning, looking at his portfolio with his wife and feeling like trash already. What if he had already been hearing those whispers in his own ears “You screwed up this time pal…now what will you do?” What if this had already begun to cause friction in his marriage and the LAST thing his wife needed to hear was some arrogant putz declaring her husbands actions STUPID on national TV? You don’t think that was a word being tossed around that household already? Or at least inside that mans heart? Typically, when a man falls mightily, it teaches him compassion. If it doesn’t, he either didn’t learn his lesson or he is so arrogant that he thinks he can’t fall again. And NO MATTER WHAT else Dave Ramsey might say on air about how lucky and blessed he says he is, his actions protray a man who looks down on people who have failed just like he did…often on people who failed far less than he did. Maybe you’ve never tasted defeat Brent, I don’t know. You seem pretty proud of your salary because you couldn’t wait to tell me how much you were making this year.
    People expect Christians to be compassionate and caring and show the love of Christ. Tell me how Dave identifying one man caught in the banking mess in all but calling him by name, does that man any good? Did Dave really need to declare those actions stupid? Did the guys not already think that way about himself? I bet he did, and I bet he will somehow find out today, if he wasn’t watching, that Ramsey made a vague reference to him. What if that man was you brent? What if that was your dad or your mom or your brother? What if it was your kids college money? Before you tell me how you would never do something that “stupid”, I would bet that guy said the same thing at some point. Maybe he did have ome more cash elsewhere and it was used up before he could move the IndyMac money. What if his wife is ill and he was depending on that to get by with medical costs? People in that situation don’t need to be reminded of what got them there. They already know. They already feel stupid…and a million worse adjectives. Jesus said the ENEMY was our accuser, not the “christians”.
    Dave Ramsey explained my detest for him this morning better than I ever could. I’ve tried to explain it here without making it personal or attacking him for anything but his arrogant abrasiveness in Christs name. If you want to respond to me in some attack, go ahead. I expect it from you now.
    But I will tell you this, I swear this before God in heaven…as I wrote this and thought about this man who lost his savings, I picture hism hearing Dave Ramsey calling his ACTIONS stupid (so as not to be misunderstood…he did not say the Man was stupid) and I imagined how many money arguments go on in the U.S. each day and how many more might be happening because of all this mess. And then I picture one side saying “See…even Dave Ramsey says you are stupid!” If Dave had said…”Man I feel for that guy. he made a mistake and had everything in IndyMac and couldn’t move it fast enough and he got burned. My prayers go out to a guy like that” WOW! What an impact that would have on someone! But all he had to offer was just another proclamation of how stupid the guys was to do what he did. Thanks Dave…I sure feel better now. God bless you as well.

  169. Okay Brent…try to distance yourself from your personal hatred of me for a moment, because I have a very valid and very serious point to make.
    This morning I was watching Fox and Friends, as I usually do.
    When they announced that Dave Ramsey “from the Fox Business Channel” was coming up in the next segment, I resisted my urge to switch to Sportscenter, swallowed the little taste of puke that arose in my throat and decided to listen.
    First I noticed Dave was very subdued, probably because being on Fox Business he is actually in the presence of REAL business professionals and he can’t get away with bombast and bluff. But that aside, the question arose about how safe is your money in a bank and he responded by citing the recent run on IndyMac after it was seized by the Feds. He then cited as an example, a man who had $236000 in IndyMac and lost $136000 of it because of the insurance caps. The man also said that represented his entire savings. Dave then, ever true to form regardless of whether it is Christlike, said “that was STUPID to have all his life savings in one bank…”
    Now, it was very unwise to do that, and ANY person who pays attention at all knows this to be true. But did you know that much of what IndyMac is failing on at this time are CD deposits? CD’s are typically considered the second most secure investments outside of government bonds and notes. I’m certain this guy didn’t just have a quarter million dollars in cash on depsoit with them I would bet some of it was in some form of security. Regardless…my real point is this…how do you think that man felt when he found out IndyMac was belly-up and he was losing more than half his life savings? Pretty stupid? Pretty scared? Pretty fearful about what he might have to do in his previously-prepared-for retirement? He was smart enough to have aquired $236000 in the first place, I bet he was amongst the first people to realize he made a blunder of enormous proportions. Now we are talking about one specific man. We could do a little research and find out his name because he was interviewd on TV and we know the exact amount he lost. So this wasn’t some generic story dave was throwing out there to illustrate his point. This man, if he was watching Fox this morning, KNEW INSTANTLY who Dave was talking about. And how do you think he felt when Dave pronounced his actions “Stupid”?
    What if he was sitting at his breakfast table this morning, looking at his portfolio with his wife and feeling like trash already. What if he had already been hearing those whispers in his own ears “You screwed up this time pal…now what will you do?” What if this had already begun to cause friction in his marriage and the LAST thing his wife needed to hear was some arrogant putz declaring her husbands actions STUPID on national TV? You don’t think that was a word being tossed around that household already? Or at least inside that mans heart? Typically, when a man falls mightily, it teaches him compassion. If it doesn’t, he either didn’t learn his lesson or he is so arrogant that he thinks he can’t fall again. And NO MATTER WHAT else Dave Ramsey might say on air about how lucky and blessed he says he is, his actions protray a man who looks down on people who have failed just like he did…often on people who failed far less than he did. Maybe you’ve never tasted defeat Brent, I don’t know. You seem pretty proud of your salary because you couldn’t wait to tell me how much you were making this year.
    People expect Christians to be compassionate and caring and show the love of Christ. Tell me how Dave identifying one man caught in the banking mess in all but calling him by name, does that man any good? Did Dave really need to declare those actions stupid? Did the guys not already think that way about himself? I bet he did, and I bet he will somehow find out today, if he wasn’t watching, that Ramsey made a vague reference to him. What if that man was you brent? What if that was your dad or your mom or your brother? What if it was your kids college money? Before you tell me how you would never do something that “stupid”, I would bet that guy said the same thing at some point. Maybe he did have ome more cash elsewhere and it was used up before he could move the IndyMac money. What if his wife is ill and he was depending on that to get by with medical costs? People in that situation don’t need to be reminded of what got them there. They already know. They already feel stupid…and a million worse adjectives. Jesus said the ENEMY was our accuser, not the “christians”.
    Dave Ramsey explained my detest for him this morning better than I ever could. I’ve tried to explain it here without making it personal or attacking him for anything but his arrogant abrasiveness in Christs name. If you want to respond to me in some attack, go ahead. I expect it from you now.
    But I will tell you this, I swear this before God in heaven…as I wrote this and thought about this man who lost his savings, I picture hism hearing Dave Ramsey calling his ACTIONS stupid (so as not to be misunderstood…he did not say the Man was stupid) and I imagined how many money arguments go on in the U.S. each day and how many more might be happening because of all this mess. And then I picture one side saying “See…even Dave Ramsey says you are stupid!” It literally broke my heart. I was choked up thinking about this mans’ plight. If Dave had said…”Man I feel for that guy. he made a mistake and had everything in IndyMac and couldn’t move it fast enough and he got burned. My prayers go out to a guy like that” WOW! What an impact that would have on someone! But all he had to offer was just another proclamation of how stupid the guys was to do what he did. Thanks Dave…I sure feel better now. God bless you as well.

  170. Brent…
    I want to apologize to you personally for my attacks. No excuses, just an apology. My last post about Ramsey said everything I wanted to say but the tone was a lot gentler. I should have said it like that all along.
    I could go into a diatribe about passion and temper and righteous indignation, but I hate “political apologies” (“I’m sorry you misunderstood me”…I’m sorry that guy made me so mad I said those things…etc.”) I was wrong in the way I said things. In doing that I was no better than I am saying Dave should be. So that makes me a hypocrite.
    …and now a repentant one.

    Later

  171. fire bad
    friends good

    If I were Frankenstein, I’d use all that fire and turn it positive, I’d use it to warm the poor and unsheltered. I’d use it to cook dinner for the hungry. Even friends good can be misleading. How many of you have been let down by a friend? See what I mean?

    (this truly is how your blog read….and if anyone agreed with it, they must be the simpleton on the block…sheesh)

  172. Hi Craig,

    We agree on something! I’m looking for that decoder ring for Wilft’s post. I read it from front to back about three times and didn’t get one sentence of it. I’m glad to see you didn’t either. I was thinking I was the only one that couldn’t make sense of it.

    Apology accepted. I apologize as well. We are obviously both passionate about our positions. Mix that with some testosterone and it sometimes leads to some name calling. No big deal.

    One thing about it, Dave Ramsey doesn’t appeal to everyone. That’s obvious. But surely we can agree that the people that talk to him have at least listened to him and know what they are getting. Listen to him for 10 minutes and you know you could be treated with some “tough love” or just “toughness” when you call.

    Personally, I don’t have a problem with him using the name of Christ during his broadcast. Sure he isn’t perfect, but neither am I. We all have failures and shortcomings. I’m just glad I don’t have millions of people listening to me that can figure out what mine are.

    One thing is sure, we’ll all be judged and held accountable for our actions. This includes Dave Ramsey. I only know of one fit to judge any of us.

    I’m really not a Dave minion. I believe he teaches a good get out of debt plan. I disagree with his investing philosophy and I don’t listen to him everyday. Heck, I haven’t listened to him in at least a year. It’s pretty boring to me now.

    I hope things improve for you. Just curious, are you / have you considered using Google Adwords to advertise your business? If not, drop me an email and I’ll explain more.

    Good Luck,

    Brent

  173. Brent…
    Thanks but no thanks. I want out of this business so badly I can’t find words to describe it. I never liked it to begin with and I especially don’t like it now that it is going south so badly.
    A few Thomas Nelson peole have my manuscript and I am keeping my fingers crossed. If I can’t get a publishgin deal I may self publish and hope for a “The Shack” type groundswell. In the mean time I keep writing loans and watching them die in the process because the landscape changes hourly. I refuse to be one of those guys sleeping in his stationwagon waiting for his big break. I may end up back in the remodelling biz if things don’t change soon.

  174. I want to address the comment that Dave has a mortgage on his Mallory Lane building where his business is. He addressed this (somewhat) a couple of weeks ago. Here is the link:

    http://www.mediafire.com/?ltxvtzusgi0

    He clearly states that he saved for 5-6 years while leasing the building with an option to buy until he had enough to pay cash for it. You can see in the property records that the property was bought last year on Feb. 28th:

    http://www.williamson-tn.org/assessor/showdata.php?ndx=201161

    He’s been in this building for several years, so it looks like he is telling the truth. So what you had to have seen was a mortgage on the building when he wasn’t the owner of the building. He was renting the building and he did not have a mortgage on the building. So your assertion that he had a note on the building is an outright lie.

  175. Okay…let’s go step by step…
    (1) We shouldn’t even be having this discussion. If you scroll back, only Brent, me and You even CARE! in the words of Chevy Chase…”generalissimo Fransico Franco is STILL dead”
    (2) Dave Ramsey is happily married and has kids and I believe is passed the age where he wants any more. So…Dave doesn’t want you to bear him a child, so this unbelievable obsession isn’t going to work with him. If you are a man…we won’t even try figuring those issues out.
    (3) I am not a liar and I did not lie. He had a lease purchase agreement. MOST people with any business savvy will want title conveyed to them when they enter into a lease purchase agreement. (or a lease option) It protects both parties and it’s smart. Dave could VERY EASILY have been on title to the property AND there could have been a note on the building that HE WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR! If he said he paid cash, I believe him. But it is possible that there was a note on the building AND his name on title as well. Tax assessors office is not the office that records mortgages. So the site you posted proves nothing except when he actually paid out his option. This is the business I was in for ten years. I’ve seen this a lot.
    Now, we need to deal with this obsession of yours…tell me about your mother…

  176. I have the obsession? You are the one that has consistently posted garbage on this thread. You said he had a mortgage on his building. HE did not. You said he is part owner of CH Mortgage. No he isn’t…and you haven’t provided anything to prove he is. You’re just a bitter person. I’m done with this thread.

  177. You keep promising to be done with this thread.
    It WAS a very good post…especially if you defend the parsing of words. But Dave does that all the time. Calling a “par” quote something other than what it is. (because nobody will know except people who KNOW, and they would NEVER do business with Churchill) Telling people to NEVER sell at a pawn shop but then doing commercials for his buddy who owns a pawn shop. It’s Clinton-esque really. But who really cares? You, me, and Brent? Scratch at least ONE of us off that list.
    I know Dave is dreamy and all but really…find someone with a higher degree of availability.
    Rail on, dear NCSU…rail on.

  178. Gas mileage in minivans arent great either…most minivans get around 19 miles per gallon in city with 23 on highway. Many SUV get around 21-23 miles per gallon in city and around 25 on highway… You entire arguement is pointless……I listen to Dave every now and again, but make sure research is done before you start a rant.

  179. Butterbean…
    Loved your boxing career!
    hey…this thread got away from the S.U.V. origiin about twenty threads ago! The guy who runs this blog hasn’t weighed in in forever. Maybe we should all drive huge S.U.V.’s and then when they expire at the 200,000 mile mark, we can ship the shells over to Somalia or wherever, and let the starving indigents convert them into living quarters. That way I get to drive what I want to drive, and Ariah, the founder of this blog, gets his wish to throw his arms around the world. It’s the best of both worlds.

  180. Hello:

    Thank you for the great article brother. I agree with everything you have said in regards to Dave Ramsey. However, I do not agree with you on global warming, don’t get caught up with the worlds religion. Our world is going through a cycle which it has done before; that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take care of our world – the scriptures command us to do so.

    I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 45, and can tell you wen I was in school they told us we were going into an “ice age”, the world was getting colder! This was 25 years ago, have we suddenly changed course? Don’t drink the kool aid bro…

    Be well,

    Jim

  181. So instead of “Live like no one else, so you can live no like one else”, you’d rather have people “Live like no one else, so you can live like Ariah Fine wants you to live.”

    It is obvious that Dave’s philosophy is very heavily influenced by the Bible…but nooooo, it doesn’t exactly match your religious ideals, he’s history?!

    I have serious problems with Dave’s stereotyping by gender, but I don’t drop Dave just for that. I choose to *not* incorporate those gender views in my personal life and I combat/ignore/forgive Dave for that.

    Speaking of which, I don’t dismiss you entirely. It really sounds like you are trying to walk the path…which is very commendable. I am merely confronting this particular rant.

  182. Careful there pal…sacred cow-tipping isn’t appreciated by some of the natives around here.
    Otherwise…nice post.

  183. Well said post. For my two cents,I think he’s a false profit (yeah, I spelled it that way on purpose). Us from the U.S., tend to rack up debt (me inclusive) at a rate that is not following Jesus. I agree with Dave for the fact we should be debt free, but I think he’s profiting with his “plan” and scenting it with God’s plan.

    1OrdinaryRadical

  184. 1. As far as I know, he never said or inferred that he was a prophet. The vast majority of people that listen to Dave don’t think he is a prophet. And for those that do, Dave probably would be the first to tell them they are mistaken (actually, he’d probably say they were stupid).

    2. Of all the things that Dave could profit from, he chooses to profit from selling wisdom. Is that a sin? No. It probably is the most moral way someone could profit.

    3. Is profit or getting wealthy itself a sin? No. If you think so, you are just another fool.

    4. Does Dave use his wisdom-giving show to indirectly sell products and services? Yes. He pushes Zander life/ID theft insurance, books for other people, Bee-Alive health products, Bsafe internet security services, US legal forms, etc. Yes.

    5. Are any of those things immoral? Nah. They seem pretty wise to me.

    6. Is it wrong to use wisdom as bait to sell other wise things? No.

    7. Do people scent bad products/services with God? I’d say about 99% of the time…so I understand your skeptism…I am too. I run everything Dave says through my “Is this true?” process. For instance, why is Dave “Mister-don’t-get-in-debt” backing Churchhill mortgage?

    8. Is Dave’s true intention (“plan”) immoral? Of course, only God knows for sure what is in a person’s heart.

    9. Do we have to be careful about (judge) what we purchase/support? Absolutely. I researched Dave thoroughly before trusting him enough to follow his advice…and only then, I checked his books out of the library instead of buying his books.

    10. Did the advice work? Yes. I’m debt-free except for my house directly by following his baby step plan. My whole life has improved (Dave’s plan includes improving your marriage and get a job you love).

    11. Do I worship Dave because of this? No. I can separate the wisdom he gives/sells from the person. But I highly recommend following his advice to anyone.

    12. Do I have problems with some of Dave’s opinions? Yes. Dave seems to project the foolish traits of the stereotypical Republicans: gender stereotyping, war hawkish, oblivious to the international banking cartel, etc. However, when you dig a bit into Dave’s plan, you see a grander anti-usurist movement. One of which, I plan to join.

  185. Lazlo_dei

    No, I don’t think Mr. Ramsey has ever declared himself a prophet, but his “disciples” do. To be frankly honest,I have only listened to his commercials we have run in church, seen his promotionaly posters we have on our offices and listened to people who think he’s better than sliced bread. Here’s my take on it. It is a sin to BE/BECOME wealthy, yes and no. Greed is a sin, cut and dried. If you try to convince yourself or anyone else that it is not, then you are sinning. But, hey, we are ALL sinners so what’s the bid deal?! Personnally, I believe that what Christ is asking us all to do is try NOT to sin. WE are full of sin, much of the time it overcomes us and we are still forgiven. But the point in time we we start making excuses or defending that sin, I think THAT is the point where we are not doing God’s will.
    I would have no issues with Dave Ramsey is it wasn’t for things like;
    1. In his clip, HE is quoted as saying, “You know what you can do if you are debt free? ANYTHING YOU WANT! (cheers from the crowd)” That doesn’t sound like some good old fashioned mammon worship to you?
    2. His poster, he’s standing there with 800 to 1000 bucks in hundred dollar bills. To me, it’s a poster on the front of my church building stating, “Come here and get rich on the Lord….”
    3. His supporters, Nothing echos the voice of the preacher like the voices of the congregation. What I am saying here is IF he’s teaching his “wisdom” in a biblical mannor, you my friend, would not be throwing rocks (“you are just another fool”, “He’d probably say they were stupid”) Not Christ like comments. I am using your comments, because we are in this discussion, but most all supporters I have met make similar statements.
    Bottom Line: I do agree that we ALL need to reduce our debt. Our society is fixed on our broken wanters and the system manipulates us to buy, buy, buy. I feel that by me reducing my debt I am defying the system to the best of my ability, and I think that is what Christ compels me to do. I am happy that Mr. Ramsey has helped people get out of debt, but I think it goes too far, border line false prophet too far.

    Love to you Lazlo,

    1OR
    http://1ordinaryradical.wordpress.com/

  186. Hey Kev, Glad you’re not going to be judging mankind in the last days. If you were, I don’t guess Abraham, King David, Job, or King Solomon will make it through those pearly gates. These men were rich beyond imagination.

    I love how some of you come here and admit that Dave is doing a good thing and then try and disect it until you find something you can judge as wrong.

    How about casting judgment? Is that no longer a sin?

    Jesus said, “How can you think of saying, ‘Friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye”. (Matthew 7:4-5)

  187. Kev…Lazlo…
    trust me when I tell you that this isn’t worth dying for. And if you stay on this site long enough…you will die! The Ramseyites will circle the wagons and attack you on a personal level, a professional level, a spiritual level…whatever it takes. Scroll back…take a look. I decided it wasn’t worth it. It just plain isn’t worth it. There is nothing more powerful than a zealot. And this topic just isn’t important enough to argue over to the depths that some of these people will plunge. Ramsey is a jerk. It’s obvious nearly every time he opens his mouth and it’s his reputation around Nashville where he lives. But he does more good than harm so who really cares? Let it go, young fellas…let it go. Ramsey’s following is pretty much a fixed number. It isn’t like he’s growing followers at an alarming rate. Inside the church world he’s a “star”…like Carman was…empty and devoid of talent but managing to be a big fish in a small bowl. In the “real world” he’s just another financial advice guy with the kind of personality that makes people want to throw his out a window while they keep listening. He’s like Howard Stern only bald and with a much smaller following. Let it go boys!

  188. Craig,

    Thank you for the advise, I think you are correct, when something goes beyond discussion into confrontation, it needs to be dropped or re-evaluated.

    Thanks!

    Kev

  189. Kev…
    No problem senor…
    You can tell a lot about a person by those who follow him. Virtually every Ramzealot I’ve ever met puts Dave on a pedestal and throws their adherance to his teachings around as if it made them better people and even better CHRISTIANS than those who don’t follow him. I’ve seen it time and again. Dave teaches some good biblical principals about living debt free. He also skips over a few handfuls of scriptures because they would require him to change his irritatiing, me-first attitude. Like the fact that Bankruptcy laws in the US have their very GROUNDINGS in levitical law. Even to the point that you can only file every seven years…very biblical. The forgiveness of debt is all throughout scripture, yet an example has been sited on this very blog, by a Ramzealot no less, that Dave was once faced with a vender who lost everything due to some bad dealings with a partner. Dave magnaimously settled with the guy for a small percentage of what he was owed because it was that or “get in line behind everyone else”. Now my guess is that Dave…being the megalomaniac that he is…probably runs a D and B on everyone he does business with. (I don’t know this for a fact but it fits his personality) I would assume Dave made certain this guy was financially sound before doing business with him. So assuming the guys story was true…why didn’t Davey Warbucks forgive the debt and do what Jesus would have done? Maybe those two lake houses are pretty pricey with upkeep and all that. Whatever…it’s his call. But I really hate it when people choose their own definition of “Christ-Like” and it’s far LESS than Christ’s definition. The whole issue of his arrogant, call people stupid, attitude is lost on his minions and not worth revisiting. He quotes scriptures about debt and borrowing, but lives as if “pride preceeds destruction and arrogance precceds a fall” was never there. He ignores, commands for humility and compassion. My personal opinion, based on what I’ve SEEN here in Nashville and what I’ve heard from those who know him and from observing his zealots in action is that Dave Ramsey is out for Dave Ramsey…period. “Seek you first the Kingdom of God” works just fine for him as long as he can make his “piles of cash” along the way. If God ever told him to give it all away and go live a life of destitute poverty and service, my guess is he’d shreik like a banshee and change churches until he found one that shouted down the discomfort. And truthfully, maybe I’m no better and would do no differently, but I’m not out there hawking everything from books to steak knives (tongue-in-cheek, Ramzealots!) at a huge profit and claiming it’s my ministry. Dave’s clever use of all the correct Christian “buzzwords” has made him a star in the world of evangelicals…just like Carman, Paul Crouch, and Joel Osteen. All of them empty and made of fluff and not substance. In fairness…Ramsey is probably of a lot more value than those other jokers. All anyone will ever be who follows Ramsey is a debt-free, arrogant jerk. Followers of those other loons might be fooled into thinking they actually have a relationship with Jesus and that is a whole lot more risky than following a bald punk who gets you out of debt.
    I’m obviously in a pontifficous mood this morning and I’ve gone long. My final statement on this is that for me personally…Ramsey is just a relly distasteful, arrongant, brash, jerk who needs to spend a LOT more time in the presence of Jesus in sincere humility and not nearly as much time seeing himself on TV. How-evuh…he does far more good than harm so I decided to keep my criticisms to myself for the most part…although this rant was fun…and let it be. In the grand scheme of things he is essentially harmless and the Holy Spirit can change even a hardcore Ramzealot into a soft hearted saint. Follow the man’s teachings and not the man and you’ll do okay.
    And heeeere comes the hatemail…

  190. He makes money selling books, tapes, and seminars. That is where his wealth comes from. His show is boring and is the same junk every day.

  191. Craig,

    FYI: While this blog has generated some pretty good rock throwing, I want to thank you. My church is having FPU for the second time and this whole conversation helps me with decision making regarding where our leadership is going. I have heard both sides and have to say I cannot support FPU and will take a stand to not host it again. You gave great advice about arguing with a zealot, but I can make decisions about what my church does and does not associate with.

    Good Blog!

    Kev/1OR

  192. Kev…
    easy there big fella…three points…

    First, try convincing your church to use Crown Financial Ministries instead. Thats the group Ramsey literally copied every last item in his FPU from. The cirriculum is FAR les expensive to procure and the overall attitude is more Christ- like.
    Second…teaching FPU with your churches attitude and not Ramsey’s might be better than not teaching it at all. Personally the entire idea of having this taught in church weirds me out, I mean why do this? is this not something I need to investigate and learn on my own? churches that teach this en masse forget that this is Ramseys marketting plan…he sells to churches! He knows what a small market that is an how people LOVE doing business with a “Christian Star”. They refer to Ramsey by his first name because he is a Christian brother, like he was just over at their house last night for a cookout. The guy likely wouldn’t piss on their hearts if they were on fire.It’s like people who contribute to TBN and consider the Crouches family.
    Third…is this the branch you want to crawl out on? I mean if you can see an attitude shift to the arrogance of Ramseyites when your church teaches FPU then fine…object loud and long. But if all they are doing is teaching his material and lining his already bloated pockets with “piles and piles of cash” then let the sleeping dog lie. In my church there are Ramseyites who carry themselves as if their lack of debt makes them better than me as a Christian. But my church is huge and I don’t ever have to sit next to them.
    Maybe you can research the Crown Financial stuff and present it to your pastor as an alternative.
    If not…this blog is a long way from a deacon board. (By the way..I am not the author of this blog) Think about whether going beyond offering your protest will be worth it. ramsey is a putz but as long as the Holy Spirit is at work in your church he is unlikely to hurt anyone.
    sheesh…me…a peacemaker!

  193. Craig, your insight hits the nail right on the head. Thanks and I’ll look into Crown Finanacial.

    There is already that contingency of folks “who carry themselves as if their lack of debt makes them better than me as a Christian” I’ve been in out out of debt in my life and know what a struggle it can be. I shutter to think of that attitude in a place of acceptance. Egad.

    Kev, I’ll back you up, bro, you know I will.

  194. Hey Craig,

    One thing as I am maturing (at least in age) is, I try to let an idea sit in my mind for a bit before responding. I think my earlier response didn’t have enough brew time :).

    Let me (hopefully) put my views in a better light. The Ramseyites tend to get offended when someone states, “I agree with Dave, but…”, and here is why I think they take offence. The core of Dave’s plan is, “to get people out of debt”, and THAT is nothing but awesome. But what I am seeing is the arrogance associated with paying a high buy-in price, and that is turning me off.

    One of the ugliest things we can see in “christians” is, “I have been saved, I am better than you” attitude. They tend to use the cost of Christ’s life to “buy” them in, hence that person is in a different classification. Yes and no. Through Christ I am viewable in God’s eyes, but No, you are no better than ANYONE else. I would also compare this attitude of the person that purchases a Mercedes Benz C class over a Saturn Ion, I have spent 3 times what you have, hence mine is better. Yes and No. Better features, but still just a motor and four wheels and goes from A to B.

    As best as I can tell, Dave’s program is much more expensive than anyone else’s, hence, it must be better. Additionally, when you tell someone that they have bought something and over spent, they interpret that as you calling them a fool. Being called a fool is probably one of the most painful things you can say to a soul. I will say to the diehard Ramsey lover’s, you are no fool. You are trying to position yourself from the burdens of debt, and that is great, BUT your buy-in at $99 a head doesn’t make you any better than the guy spinning his wheels in the mire of debt. If you ARE a follower of Jesus Christ, then you should be helping him, not convincing him scrape the money up to take the class. Hell, maybe what you should do is take you debt-free money and give it to him! (Sorry, that was not a well brewed comment, but funny none the less)

    So to get off my soap box, I cannot support Dave Ramsey’s program in my church. We are small and I work hand in hand with everyone. To support his plan (at $99 each, buy-in) over another more reasonable plan is, to me, irresponsible leadership. Mind you, I do not agree with the ideology that “Cheap is good”, but neither is “over priced”.

    Make sense? (Does to me, but I tend to talk to myself 🙂 )

    Kev

  195. Kev..Met…
    Thanks for the thumbs up. After the day I’ve had I could use a little pat on the back.
    I battled with some Ramzealots here like the freedom of earth depended on it and all I got was more angry. Give a listen to “Money Matters” which is the Crown Financial call in talk show. They are only on Christian radio because they are a non profit and they proclaim their Christian base quite adamantly, as opposed to ramsey who drops it into the last five seconds of his on-air time.
    Again…I suppose you could do worse than follow Dave Ramsey’s advice but if you have the option to teach it from a FAR more christ-like, far more Christ HONORING format, (and from the guy who actually developed it) than I think that’s the better move.
    Plus it won’t cost you “plies of cash”

  196. Well…since this is the Dave / anti-Dave blog of choice, I thought I’d dump a mild rant on everyone today and see how the Ramzealots squint to make Dave an escape hatch.
    Yesterday, I happened to catch the last call of the day for King Dave. I was tuning in to listen to Phil Valentine and the clock in my car is a few minutes fast and I caught the last 5 minutes of the irritating Mr. Ramsey. Some lady called him to inquire about getting the mortgage insurance dropped from her loan. She claimed her house had increased in value and she was below the 79.9% LTV required to drop PMI. She then told Dave that she got a notice from the lender that she had “Lender Paid MI” and it cannot be dropped. Here is where I need to explain…Lender paid MI is an alternate method of paying the mortgage insurance on your loan. Instead of having a monthly MI payment, they add a little to your interest rate, (typically .25% or a quarter point, for those of you who are decimally challenged) It raises your payment each month, but in virtually every case the new payment is lower with the higher rate than the old rate with PMI. Also, because it is an interest rate adjustment, the interest is tax deductible, where MI is not. So for basically everyone, it is the better deal. It is called “lender paid MI” because the trade off for the higher rate is that the lender pays the MI payment each month from their proceeds. Now here’s the Ramsey-rub. Dave goes off on a tangient about this program, while readily admitting he’s never heard of it. BUT THAT DIDN’T STOP HIM FROM RENDERING HIS BLOATED, UNINFORMED OPINION ABOUT IT AND BERATING THE LENDER WHO DID THE LOAN! Even though this lender actually talked the lady into a 15 year note in accordance with her being a Ramzealot. Dave called them everything but unethical all the while openly proclaiming he hadn’t heard of that term before. It was amazing. I was alternately screaming at my radio and laughing at his supreme arrogance and bluster. Does this man have NO shame whatsoever? (He is a realtor…I already know the answer to that).
    So for you Dave-defenders who will be scrambling to find some line of defense for this act of arrogant pompousity…here’s a little lesson for you. Lender paid MI is offered by EVERYONE. It was developed in 1997! Countrywide calls it “TAMI” Tax Advantage Mortgage Insurance” thus named because it makes the insurance a deductible. Fannie and Freddie both offer it on EVERY CONVENTIONAL LOAN! It is at least 11 years old and Dave knew NOTHING of it. Now I don’t really care that he didn’t…but he should have just SHUT UP about it if he had absolutely no knowledge of what he was talking about. (That would be a first!)
    Again…his arrogance does it’s bidding and his mouth follows suit. (hey…that’s pretty good!)
    He told this women to go after the lender “with a big club” until they dropped it. Well Davey boy…it doesn’t get dropped…ever. Next time you don’t know the answer…JUST SAY SO! “Better to be silent and be thought a fool (or “stupid as you like to call every 5th caller) than open your mouth and remove all doubt”
    Let the hate-mail commence.

  197. Hi Craig,

    I think most of what Dave teaches about investing is wrong. It’s great for someone not sure where to start, but once your past the $10,000 mark, you better do your own research.

    I agree with you that there are situations where Lender Paid Mortgage Insurance would make sense. The tax advantage is a plus. The only drawback is you can’t cancel it when your below the 80% LTV. Your basically stuck with it for the term of your loan.

    During the real estate boom, you could purchase a property with a very modest 5% down payment and with an average appreciation of 7 1/2% a year, you could drop PMI in only two years.

    Dave is paid to give his opinion. Like it or not, there is no shortage of people lined up to hear it.

  198. Hey Brent…
    I agree. In fact I don’t really thnk his investment advice is wrong so much as it is painfully bland and driven by sponsors. But following it won’t break anyone. My real issue the other day was how readily he attacked the broker while openly admmitting he didn’t knwo what he was talking about. And how readily people accept his input under those terms regardless. THAT is irresponsible on BOTH sides.
    During the peak of the mortgage boom we had a few lenders who would actually do 100% stated income on investment properties. (they all sold the loans to Countrywide, who would buy ANYTHING in those days) If there was ever a benefit to not getting my identity from my job it was that fact that it allowed me the freedom to tell someone I refused to do a loan like that. “I was looking for a job when I found this one” was my motto. In the end all the integrity did for me, besides the ability to look every customer in the eye, was let me last longer in the business than most guys did. que cera

  199. How do you know that the family calling in is not already donating or sacrificing money? Thatis a huge assumption. If you listen to Dave you will her him say how NECESSARY it is to give. Tithes help feed the poor and clothe the needy, and if you don’t pay tithes then he advises that you find a charity or worthy cause to GIVE to.

    Your beef with him is so wrongly founded! You missed a beautiful speach he gave on the reality that people who are DEBT free are able to give more! The number one donations for Katrina victims were given by PRIVATE PARTIES (people who can afford to give!)

    After following his plan (no, we don’t eat rice and beans)for 18 months our family has donated to humanitarian funds, given local offerings, and even make a huge donation to a cancer fund raiser in honor of our sister who passed away to cancer. We were never able to do that before finding him, always pinching pennies and paying bills.

    It is just sad that you are slandering his message, when in reality it has helped us give more than ever.

  200. Hey! I found your blog linked just under mine on Marque Jensen’s (my husbands uncle)blog. I really appreciate the things you are blogging about and I am a part of a MOPS group that is interested in having a GOD is Green speaker in the early part of next year. I attended a conference with my church (Vineyard) that was title “God is Green” and felt empowered by wha I heard. It is now a topic that more moms want to know about and I wanted to get any info I can from Christians who are concerned with this stuff too. I would love for you to check out the website of the guy who put the conference on if you have the time letstendthegarden.org. I definately think this is a huge issue that God is laying on the hearts of thousands of believers and we definately need to help equip each other to spread the news. One of the small things we do for the environment is cloth diaper our son and I thought I would mention that to you also since you have a little one. You can check out the websites to check out on my blog if you want to know more about the diapers we have. If you are not already cloth diapering (which I imagine you may be with what I have read so far) you can definately email me with any questions you have because I love talking about my cloth diapers. Anyway, I always get sidetracked it seems, but if you have any info that you think would be easy steps we can give moms to do around the house to reduce their carbon footprint and clean and green our world, point me in that direction cause I want to gather info soon so that we can compile it and make it managable for the moms to read. Thanks!

    Ps I guess this was sort of on topic and I love your response to the lady who called in way better than Dave’s…I tend to think he is a bit self absorbed anyhow!

  201. wow…I have been reading other comments since I posted and had no idea I was joining into such a heated debate. I hope Ariah actually reads this?!?!

  202. I sure hope you are kidding. GOD is green??? Ummm…no He isn’t. God decided the fate of this planet about 8000 years ago…you, Rick Warren, Bono, Ariah, the whole plethora of “re-live the sixties” neo-hippies will not stop that. Global Warming is a fraud and when pastors get involved it lends religious creedence to a false doctrine. The earth is going to be destroyed…period. The “global warming” period ended about 2000. It has been getting cooler ever since. Put down the kool-aid and back away! THERE IS NO GLOBAL WARMING! I believe in being a good inhabitant..I pick up after myself and don’t pee in swimming pools. But you can’t be a steward of something whose fate is sealed. It is arrogant to do so…to the point of idolatry.
    Buy yourself an SUV, go to Sam’s and buy some regular diapers.
    …anxiously awaiting the NEW Heaven and the NEW EARTH…

  203. Food for thought. I really wish I would have read some comments before I commented. When I went to bed last night I was hoping I wouldn’t recieve any strong comments based on what neither people who oppose or uphold “Global warming” have good hard facts to support. Global Warming is a terrible label anyway. I am not supporting the term or the hypothesis, but maybe as Tri (the pastor who wrote the following article) put it radical climate change. Hope you can read the rest with an open mind and more importantly open heart.

    Why Many Have Neglected the Call to “Tend the Garden.”
    http://www.letstendthegarden.org/positions/resist1.htm- all the following comes from this link. I think it is a very important issue facing our times. This obviously is my opinion and not yours. I will continue to do what I believe Jesus is calling all Christians to do and you can do the same. I really am not one to say whether I think you are wrong. I guess we will not ever know for sure until we get our correction from God.

    WHOSE AGENDA?

    Many Christians perceive the environmental movement as a liberal agenda.
    We often assume that those who champion the environment also champion other liberal issues. Environmentalists are falsely stereotyped as militant extremists who push their agendas in non-biblical ways. The Church has resisted environmental issues because we have watched angry demonstrations and negative behavior. These perceptions have been used to successfully polarize people against one another for the past several decades. Christians are commissioned to take God’s love to all, yet we often resist those with motivations that stem from experiences other than biblical. We have wrongly turned away from issues for which we should have taken personal responsibility.

    Likewise, liberals often perceive the Church as anti-environment. This perception is often due to the lack of acknowledgement and promotion by the Church for Christians to be active environmental stewards. As a result, liberals wrongly deny the idea of Christianity, calling it irrelevant. In order for healing to begin, these attitudes and perceptions must change.

    Many of today’s pastors are baby boomers with varying backgrounds regarding this issue. Most have one thing in common: they were college age during the 60’s and 70’s. They experienced the environmental movement of that era, a movement that was equated with heavy drug use, immorality and “free love.”

    Some pastors genuinely wanted to make the world a better place. However, in the 80’s, many of the most outspoken comrades on the issue abandoned the values once held so dear. There was a lack of authenticity, resulting in hypocrisy. Each group’s fervor had been based on their own ideals instead of Truth and their cause crumbled. Left with disillusionment over such a passionate issue, many not only rejected the environmentalists, but the environment.

    Our perceptions were wrong and it’s time we leave behind our cynicism and return to God’s commission — to appreciate and be responsible stewards of His creation, and in the process, to show God’s unconditional love to others.

    As Christians we are to operate in what we refer to as the “Jesus Style”. When we gave our life to Christ, we committed ourselves to be Christ-like. We are called to live in the upside-down kingdom of God, where everything is opposite from the world. In this kingdom the first is the last and the greatest is the least. We are to love those who hurt us and turn the other cheek. Jesus told us the greatest in His kingdom is the servant of all. To be Christ-like is to be compassionate and others-centered. We must cease our non-constructive attitudes and take responsibility for the world we all share together.

    BAD THEOLOGY

    It Isn’t All About Us

    We have resisted environmental stewardship due to misconceptions.
    In a recent pastoral meeting in Boise, environmental stewardship was discussed. Three of the pastors had backgrounds and degrees in environmental studies and yet all admitted they resisted the topic of environmental stewardship mainly because of political stereotypes.

    One pastor cited some faulty beliefs within the Church. He explained that “Manifest Destiny” has been an underlying part of Christian theology since the founding phases of America. This view stated that the American continent was given to us by God for our exclusive consumption and use. This unbiblical philosophy served as a battle cry in our frenzy of conquering the West.

    As a result we drove the beaver, the buffalo, and other species to the brink of extinction. We cut timber and extracted minerals by any method we could find, abusing the land without consideration of future consequences. Because the Church embraced Manifest Destiny as actual theology, the value of environmental stewardship never took root in our land.

    To compound this misconception, various end-time theological views have misguided the Church as well. Through various teachings, publications and writings, many Christians have been lead to believe that “it’s all going to burn anyway” and have consequently developed the attitude of “why care?” We believe such thinking reflects an invalid view of theology. These misrepresentations of God’s heart have caused a serious blight in the Church’s reputation as well as adversely affecting the environment.

    We have neglected to see environmental stewardship as a biblical mandate.

    The Hebrew text of the Bible is holistic in nature, acknowledging that all life is intertwined and inter-dependent under its Creator. As shown in Genesis, we are to join all of creation in the constant praise of our God. The rest of creation is already worshiping, doing what He created them to do. All of creation already acknowledges that Jesus is the center and the origin of life.

    We must see the part we play in creation. By our own choice, we remain entrenched in our man-made environments. But we can assume our role within the big picture. We can choose to lay down our apathy, and open our eyes to God’s eternal power and divine nature that is found in the works of His hands.

    It’s not about our definition or appreciation of beauty. The miracle of created things– their coherence, their variety, and their very existence– exalts the One who spoke them into being. God formed us so we could participate in worship, relationships, and service, and it starts now, here on earth as it is in heaven.

    A Vineyard Boise Christian recently made a profound statement that sums up our role. They said, “We are called to environmental stewardship not because it’s about mother earth, but because it belongs to Father God.” Let’s join the chorus of creation and praise His holy name!

  204. well…coming from a Vineyard church the theology automatically is suspect. these are the same yoyo’s who abided Rodney Howard Browns’ barking dog / “holy laughter up in Toronto and claimed it was a movement of God. I know of two Vineyard pastors who could carry water theologically.
    Here’s one big old pothole…it’s GOD’s planet to tend…not mine. Did you know that you could put EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THIS PLANET in there own 2×2 space of land and it would only fill the city of Jacksonville Florida?? Man doesn’t take up enough space on this planet to make a difference ecologically. The theory is a farce. There is no science behind it. Weather has only been measure with any accuracy for roughly 150 years. Prior o that it is strictly conjecture. Yet you have liberal theologians joining the chorus of “save the planet” bozos wanting to strip us (America) of her ability to be productive. Their misguided desire to “clean up” gasoline by adding ethanol has already priced corn into the stratosphere…thereby hurting poor countries the most. They need to stick to hoakie showmanship theology and leave the bad scince to the bad scientists.
    And you need to THINK and not just folow some pastor from Idaho who now thinnks he is an authority on ecology as well as the Bible. beware ANYTHING that someone peddles by signing Jesus’ name to it. That goes for bald financial gurus and theo-ecologists.

  205. Amen Craig! We just hit a subject that we both agree on.

    Is the climate changing? Maybe. Maybe not.

    If it is changing is it the result of man? I’ve seen no evidence of that. No more than the last ice age was caused by dinosaurs.

    My biggest problem with this whole “green nonsense” is it is peddled by a bunch of elitist that want the rest of us to change our lives, but don’t want to be bothered with it themselves.

    Al Gore is a perfect example. He lives in mansions, flies private plans around the country, and then just bought a huge house boat which he named BS1.

    These things are great and I have no problem with them. If a person can afford them, then I say more power to them. Just don’t try and push your Green BS down my throat and tell me how to live.

    The idea that churches have joined in on this nonsense is ridiculous.

  206. Ramsam…
    I quote you on this: “We were never able to do that before finding him, always pinching pennies and paying bills.” Respectfully I say… YES YOU WERE ABLE TO DO THIS! Dave Ramsey had absolutely NOTHING to do with your ability to, or willingness to do these great charitable works. He put together a book of ideas that he borrowed from someone else and he capitalized on his personality and his ability to sell that book of ideas to the church world. PERIOD! Dave neither thought up so much as ONE of his principles nor did he personally infuse you with the ability to become debt free or be a giver. YOU have always had that ability because it comes from GOD not Dave Ramsey. (That you actually have a screen name “Ramsam” really troubles me…you sound like another of the Ramzealot kool-aid drinkers) HE is just a good salesman. His principles work but that is in SPITE of Dave, not because of him. Back off the throttle a little mio fratello. He is just a man. As Lou Holtz says “He putch his pantch on jusch like we dooo!”
    Ariah…the creator of this blog…hasn’t weighed in on Ramsey in a long time. So you won’t get his attention anyway.

  207. I said I wasn’t going to post on here anymore…but I want to clear up some wrong statements with regards to FPU for readers that aren’t familiar with it. First, Ramsey freely admits he didn’t come up with any of this stuff…he just packaged it well. Second, there are some differences between Dave’s way and Crown Ministries way of getting out of debt:

    1. Crown is more of a “steady plodding” approach, while Dave tends to be a sprint for at least steps 1-3

    2. Fundamental difference is priority on the EF. Crown teaches an increase from $1,000 to 1 month before paying off consumer debt (student loans, car payments etc) but after Credit Cards are paid off. Emergencies greater than $1000 do happen.

    3. Crown does work with FICO scores. Responsible use of credit cards (pay balance off in full on time, every time). FICO and CCs are convenient and useful. Crown would call for a plastectomy of anyone form whom Credit cards is stumbling block.

    Crown is more of a bible study with regards to money. It goes way deeper about what the bible says about money. FPU is more of a step by step plan and motivation to get it done quickly. Both are great programs. What hasn’t been discussed in this thread, though, is that only a third or so of FPU is about getting out of debt. It has weeks for understanding insurance, understanding investing, college and retirement, mortgages and real estate, how to negotiate for bargains, relationships and money, how to beware of the marketing tactics used today, etc.

    And contrary to what Craig has seemed to indicate, FPU is also presented in the workplace, military, and community. He has programs that are in high schools. It’s not only churches (although churches are probably his largest audience by far). Yes, it’s for profit, but not an unreasonable cost in my opinion. He employs 200+ people. This was a business he started, but Craig seems to feel that he is wrong for continuing to make this his business. Regardless, he’s a great motivator and the class provides great motivation for the people willing to do the work.

    Crown is a non-profit organization. Although, after I visited their website, I get mailings all the time asking for donations.

    So regardless of what Craig might say about him as a person, his program and his class work.

  208. And one more thing for the other people on here that don’t have a personal vendetta against Dave Ramsey…he was actually on the Crown Ministries Radio show this summer as a guest. Here is a link to a recap as well as to listen:

    http://www.crown.org/media/relatedcontent/071008.aspx

    And here is a quote from the recap article:

    “In the second segment, Howard welcomes talk show host Dave Ramsey to the program. Dave is a longtime friend of Crown Financial Ministries and credits Crown’s late Co-Founder, Larry Burkett, with inspiring him to teach others biblical financial principles.”

    You can just see the hatred and disgust the Crown folks have for this “thief”.

  209. One last comment….you’ve called Ramsey a thief several times on this thread. What exactly has he stolen and from who? Larry Burkett didn’t invent the concept of living on less than you make. He didn’t invent the envelope system…people have been doing that for many many years. He didn’t invent the concept of having an emergency fund. He didn’t invent the debt snowball.

  210. Dave is good…Dave is everywhere…Dave is my hero…Dave is my lord and savior…Dave’s face should be on all paper currency…Dave cures cancer…Dave could kick the crap out of Chuck Norris…
    You “One more thinged” three times! I think it’s time for an idolatry check, amigo. Dave is an boor who knows how to market…period. I was talking to a guy the other day who works at a Sprint store, (location shall remain anonymous to protect the innocent) the guy told me Davey came into the store about 6 months ago wanting his phone repaired because he dropped it and he was so rude they finally told him they’d just give him a new phone if he’d just go away! Nice christian man, that Dave Ramsey. Talk about STUPID! Try witnessing to that Sprint guy. You need to take a closer look at who is attached to the azz you insist on kissing at every possible turn.

  211. Dave is good…Dave is everywhere…Dave is my hero…Dave is my lord and savior…Dave’s face should be on all paper currency…Dave cures cancer…Dave could kick the crap out of Chuck Norris…
    You “One more thinged” three times! I think it’s time for an idolatry check, amigo. Dave is a boor who knows how to market…period. I was talking to a guy the other day who works at a Sprint store, (location shall remain anonymous to protect the innocent) the guy told me Davey came into the store about 6 months ago wanting his phone repaired because he dropped it and he was so rude they finally told him they’d just give him a new phone if he’d just go away! Nice christian man, that Dave Ramsey. Talk about STUPID! Try witnessing to that Sprint guy. You need to take a closer look at who is attached to the azz you insist on kissing at every possible turn.

  212. I’m not kissing anyones ass. I’m not even talking about him as a person. I’m talking about FPU. You are trashing this program because you don’t like him.

  213. No…I am trashing HIM. His ‘program” is neutral. It’s good basic advice, for the most part, that someone else thought up ages ago. It’s HIM that is the problem. His attitude, His arrogance, His self importance, His self aggrandizement, His insistance on overcharging for his extremely adequate advice. Everything flows from the top down…and the top sucks in this case.

  214. Well my wife and I paid $40 to take “Good Sense” budgeting a few years ago. The $100 for FPU was a far greater value. I’ve saved many times over $100 from what I learned in the insurance lesson alone.

  215. Hmmmm, there is a very important issue that is missing from this discussion.

    The foundation of Dave’s product philosophy is anti-usury. If you bothered to actually study DR product philosophy, Dave reminds us how the US and Christian culture used to include the distain of usury practices. It’s why Dave wants us to get out of debt and *stay* out of debt…thus, there is no such thing as “good debt” (a fairly new concept in finance).

    This anti-usury belief is one of the reasons that Dave doesn’t prioritize high-interest debts over the debt balance. He doesn’t want us to just get out of debt via the best mathematical formula (albeit his method, usually is the fastest and less expensive way to get out of debt because it includes emotional, life, and account fluxuating variables). He wants us to get in the habit of NOT owing money to anyone. Thus, you start out with a list of organizations you owe to…and one by one, you eliminate those organizations…and the fastest way to see that list shrink is to pay off smallest to largest.

    At one point all the major religions were anti-usury. Today, only Islam has the courage to continue to preach that belief. I believe that Dave is trying to resurrect that belief both in Christian culture and in US culture.

    Now I perfectly understand that Dave might not fit the description of the ‘perfect’ Christion. But (1) Other than Christ, who does; (2) Resurrecting this belief in the Christian/US/world culture is far too important to be intolerant of Dave. No matter how you slice Dave, he simply is not that bad of a Christian…besides you aren’t really supposed to be judging him.

    The Dave Ramsey show is really part of a serious movement to create strong empowered people…mostly Christian…that can have enormous impact on this modern world. Dave speaks of not only getting out of debt, not only of becoming wealthy, but how important it is to pass on this wealth and wisdom to children. Generational wealth in benevolent families/organizations used to be a Christian goal…to offset the generational wealth in non-benevolent families/organizations. And Dave not only talks the ‘passing of wisdom to children’ talk, he has written several children books that establish an anti-usury/Christian belief about managing money.

    The ‘get out of debt’ advertising bait is just the tip of the iceberg of his overall product/philosophy.

    Frankly, I don’t know why prosperity got such a bad name in the Christian culture. I’m betting that it reflects the recent perversion of modern Christianity. There are lots of very important Christian beliefs that have been perverted into things that actually harm people’s relationship with God. Accepting usury is one of them.

  216. SIIIGGHHH!
    Man…YOU should be hosting the show! At least there’d be someone there who considers it important to act what you say.
    I’m weary of this topic. Dave Ramsey isn’t going away and I don’t like saying his name out loud as often as I already have.

  217. It is $100 when purchased through a church. Why do you ignore questions and then respond by claiming I worship Ramsey? You’ve lied several times on this thread. You lied about him taking out a mortgage on his business. You lied about him being part owner of Churchhill Mortgage. You’ve spouted tremendous amounts of hate in a very un-Christ like manner yourself.

  218. Global warming is not an issue. The earth goes through cycles and the main factor is the volcanoes. It’s just a marketing scheme to get you to go green. They are teaching this in colleges for young entrepreneurs to capitalize on those who fear of global warming and make excessive amounts of money based on products that cost more and aren’t anymore efficient or even better than the standard product.

    Don’t be a dunce and fall into the marketing gimmicks of global warming. The earth is a beautiful place and despite our efforts the global warming is something someone came up with to cause fear in the people to control them. It’s all about control. And that control is for greed and power.

  219. I have read every comment, bible scriptures, and every rude uncalled for name calling.

    Dave Ramsey is not GOD!!! Dave Ramsey DID NOT CREATE OR STEAL the ideas from someone else. As ncsu95 states above he packaged all these ideas all these thoughts in to one little $14.99 book. The book is to get you fired up and to take his FPU class yes which is $99.00. (You do not have to take his FPU classes to get out of debt, his 14.99 book tells you how to do it ,FPU goes more in depth with how to get out of debt.) But if I want to get out of debt and this plan works. Why not!! But keep in mind this is only one man’s opinion(WAY) there are others out there if you choose to look for them or not is up to you.

    If anyone calls them self a Christian on this blog that has been rude in any sort of comment, I am ashamed. For you are not a Christian. The True Christ followers follow in the path of Jesus Christ. Nobody is perfect except for GOD himself.

    No I do not know Dave Ramsey personally but he has an awesome method of helping someone that wants help. If you don’t want help don’t listen to his radio show or read his books, this is your opinion. I believe his 7 Baby Steps are true for everyone. But you can modify those steps to fit your situation. Steps 1-3 every American should follow. Nobody should be in debt. But that is what this country is now founded on. You can’t live a wealthy life without debt. WRONG!!!! What did our Ancestors back 100 years ago or even 200 years ago do. “Your word was a promise”. Today if you promise something it has to be in the Red Ink and stamped with approval on it.

    BK I have a great example. I have a friend that filed for BK should he been excepted to file for BK NO!!! Why… He loves his car stereos at 25 years old he filed for BK because he had to have a BOOM BOOM Car Stereo system. If you get laid off and way in debt my OPINION you have the right to file BK. If you lose your job for MAKING STUPID CHOICES you should not be allowed to file.

    Now like I said these are my OPINOINS I am sure I am going to get comments to what I have said.

    Took me about 3 days or so to read this entire blog. Great information guys..

    And GOD BLESS TO YOU ALL.
    If you are not a Christ follower remember that to Love Christ and to follow him is to have a Relationship with Jesus Christ.

  220. woot! I love Dave! Leading his FPU in my church right now! Only debt left are my student loans. Four family’s lives are changing right in front of me, it is amazing to watch. One guy cannot wait to be able to give more. I love giving too. Someday I hope to give tons of money away to help others and no one know.

    ha ha Global warming, wow…really? This winter I hope it warms up here in Missouri, that would be nice. It is arrogant to think we can screw up this earth. Sure on a micro level we should be clean, but not sure we can change macro. peace

    bp

  221. To quote “Mike”
    “If anyone calls them self a Christian on this blog that has been rude in any sort of comment, I am ashamed. For you are not a Christian.”

    Does that include those who called me a liar? I’m sure you are including me for my comments about Dave. Does it also include Dave for being rude to desperate, embarrassed, wiped out people and calling them stupid while shamelessly plugging anything that will make him another buck to add to his “pile”?
    I’d be VERY careful about making the jump from someone being “rude” (as YOU define it) and someone not being a Christian. That’s dangerous and hyper legalistic.

  222. “wiped out people and calling them stupid while shamelessly plugging anything that will make him another buck to add to his “pile”?”

    I suppose you have not really paid much attention to Dave’s Radio Show…. He never calls anyone Stupid.. Yes he does use the word a lot. The things he calls stupid are Decisions he and yourself including everyone else on this blog has made in some point in their life. Now this does not mean nor am I calling anyone Stupid. You call for his opinion be prepared he is going to say the things you have done are STUPID. Did he just call that person Stupid, NO. He called their decision STUPID. Did that person already feel STUPID for their Decision possibly. Did Dave make it worse… Hmmm possibly but if you know Dave and listen to him you know he is not calling you STUPID. He is calling your Decision STUPID. I think that’s the main point about his calling someone Stupid.
    One quick question why are you so geared in dogging someone you really don’t know? Were you a caller at one time and did not like his reply? I am not trying to be rude here. I am just asking….

    “Dave is a boor who knows how to market…period”
    Tell you what I have an invention I made this thing called a water bottle. It costs me in materials around $.35 to make and possibly $.45 on labor and another $.25 to put filtered water in it. But I am just going to give it to you for free. So it does not cost you anything but costs me $1000 if I give this same bottle to another 1000 people. What did I do? Oh yea.. I didn’t make any money off of it. I know this is probably a poor example but this is a Free Enterprise Country and to make a buck you have to design a product to be worth something to be profitable. Dave with his marketing skills has connected with millions of eyes and listeners because he has a product that is profitable for him and the consumer. Is it for everyone NO.

    “I was talking to a guy the other day who works at a Sprint store, (location shall remain anonymous to protect the innocent) the guy told me Davey came into the store about 6 months ago wanting his phone repaired because he dropped it and he was so rude they finally told him they’d just give him a new phone if he’d just go away! Nice Christian man, that Dave Ramsey.”

    #1 Do you believe everything someone says?
    #2 Yes this pertains more to you Craig….
    #3 Craig what I can tell this is my opinion from all the posts I have read that you have posted you have a problem with Jesus Freaks you don’t like Dave Ramsey due to his Biblical Teachings. If you were to read the books of Proverbs you can find the majority of life’s lessons.

    “That’s dangerous and hyper legalistic”
    Craig could you explain more what Hyper Legalistic means. I have not heard that term. All I can find is.
    “The essence of legalism is trusting in religious activity rather than trusting in God. It is placing our confidence in a practice rather than in a Person – and, without fail, this will lead us to love the practice more than the Person.”

    I do not place my confidence in practice I trust in God, Jesus and the Holy Sprint as they are one person. The best way to know God is to have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

    Hey Craig… This is a great discussion. Let’s keep it up.. maybe one of us will get stumped.

  223. Mike…
    Legalism is what happens when you or anyone else defines Christianity by any other guideline than what’s clearly defined in the Bible. To say that if I speak rudely means I am not a Christian is legalism, because now, you have changed the definition of a Christian from someone who has accepted Christ as savior, to someone who doesn’t talk rudely, as you define it. I am from Philly…what is rude to you might be a term of endearment to me. But you say I am not a true Christian because you think I am rude. There are no verses to back you up but you have defined this rule anyway…that is legalism. Salvation involves faith in Christ and nothing else…including rudeness or lack thereof.
    As for Dave not calling someone stupid directly…hmmm try this experiment…
    Next time your wife walks by, tell her her dress makes her look fat. You didn’t say SHE looked fat…you said her dress made her look fat. Will she buy that reasoning? Hell no!
    Dave calling someones actions stupid is EXACTLY the same as him calling them stupid. You know this and I know this and I have no doubt HE knows this too.
    I have been on the recieving end of being down on my luck and even paying for my own bad choices. NOBODY had to remind me I had screwed up. If I had called someones national talk show to seek advice I would have immediately assumed that my even CALLING him was an admission of my own mistakes so nobody has to tell me and make me feel worse. Jesus NEVER did this. He never called the woman at the well a whore, or Peter a wishy washy man of poor character. He never even refered to JUDAS in the negative!
    Ramsey takes great liberties with the emotions of very hurting people. Regardless of how they got there, they must be aware of their mistakes or they wouldn’t stoop so low as to call The Man Behind The Curtain.
    He needs to think about how his words can be interpreted…whether he means to call them stupid or not.

  224. I’ve called you a liar because you’ve lied on this thread.

    1. You said that Ramsey had a mortgage on his business building. He has not. He purchased it for cash in Feb. of 07. He leased the building prior to that while saving the cash to pay for it.

    2. You said he is part owner of Churchill Mortgage. He has said he doesn’t do partnerships. Mike Hardwick owns CHM.

    3. You’ve said he is a hypocrite because he allows pawn shops to advertise but has said that he is against pawn shops. He is not against pawn shops. He says they are a great place to get bargains.

    So doesn’t this make you a liar?

  225. Oh what a response, I’m sure that 30 bux is gonna help a child and they will start sending it ASAP. We could all stop something and give. What is our Author giving???
    I’m sure I could find ways to help him give more. Is this a christian guilt trip? The best thing is being out of debt is a good thing when times are hard, as they are for me now. Not having any debt is a blessing right now. Remember, you can take your car payment and feed lots of people, if you want. The theory is good, biblical and I am proof being debt free is good. Now where did that kid go with my plate of food???

  226. NCSU95…I’ll type really slow, because it’s evident you can’t read very fast and you are missing many valid points…probably a local…ready? here we go…
    I told you I saw the mortgage on that building in 2003, at the same time the building was in Ramsey’s name. I was sitting in my office with a guy who taught FPU at my old church…so he was a full-on, kool-aid drinking Ramzealot. He couldn’t believe it either, but he saw the same thing I did. I have also explained to you how this could be and Ramsey still not be lying about the situation. (although parsing words like a Clinton)
    He obviously did a wrap around mortgage. YOU YOURSELF said that he lease / purchased the building over several years before he dipped into his hige pile of cash and bought it outright. So he likely had the title conveyed and made lease payments until he was ready to pay it off. SO…while the mortgage probably wasn’t his…there WAS a mortgage on the building during the time he was listed as an owner. This is the fourth time I have posted this and you are obviosuly too stumped by the facts OR too stuck nose-first inside Ramseys bum to admit I have a valid point and a viable scenario. I consider this point closed now.
    He was a part owner of Churchill in it’s infancy. There was at least ONE other partner besides Hardwick and Ramsey…I can name him, can you???
    No? Probably because you didn’t know that, did you?
    Three, I said, and I continue to maintain, that it is hypocritical of Ramsey to take sponsorship from a pawn shop. YOU have now lied. I have heard old Yoda myself saying you should NEVER sell at a pawn shop, he says they are great places for bargains. You only find a bargain when you are BUYING there, Einstein. Yet virutally every five minutes he refers to his old buddy “So and So” who cleverly calls himself a jeweller now, but who has owned pawn shops for at LEAST as loong as I have been in Nashville (11 years). He is telling his sheep how they need to sell their unwanted gold to his old buddy whose last name sounds like an edible seed pod. But you don’t see the conflict I guess. You sell ANYTHING at a pawn shop when you are desperate and hard up for money and you know you are getting the lowest possible return for your money. But they must pay good money for those spots so Ramsey keeps on hawking that position.
    Since you will doubtless deny everything I wrote here, I’ll repeat once again…I DON’T CARE!!! If you want to shell out $200 for his lame advice and plagiarized financial program go right ahead!
    I’m more curious as to how many times you’ll ignore my factual rebuttal and continue to call me a liar on a website nobody reads except for the dozen or so regulars whose opinion is already set. If you’d like to borrow my hockey helmet I’d loan it to you gladly. That way when you beat your head against that same wall, you won’t do further brain damage.

  227. Hey TB,
    Lighten up on Ariah, the founder of this blog. If you read his other posts and topics, he is a full-on believer who must have been really heavily exposed to some radical Christo-socialism. he is pretty much against everything. If you have a house, it is likely too large and too expensive. If you drive a car it probably costs too much and you could spend the money better on some third world country, doing what the entire resources of the US government still can’t figure out what to do. and then there’s “Global warming”. he buys into it…like a lemming. But I can’t even argue that point anymore because as soon as you make one point countering their lunacy, they just change the lingo and make you start a new rebuttal.
    But the kid means well, and I think you are correct…he is on a massive Christian guilt trip. He will likely discover what Bono did…”You can’t Throw Your Arms Around The World”. maybe he’ll buy some jet skis, and a nice SUV for towing them and enjoy some of this incredible world God gave us.
    In the interim…go easy on the young idealist.

  228. $100 for the plan? Ummm, no.

    Listening to Dave’s program got me to buy one of Dave’s books…I bought a used More Than Enough for $7.

    I read it. Digested it. Then started executing the plan.

    The budget was a mess at first, but after a couple months I was in the ballpark.

    About a year later, most of my family’s debt was gone…and, more importantly, my wife started getting on board.

    I had heard Dave mention FPU several times, but I thought it was more of a slogan for his ‘education’…I didn’t know it was a product. Some slick saleperson he is.

    Once I figured out that FPU is a product for $100, I didn’t need it to pay off my debt. But I bought it anyway because:

    1. To *really* get my wife on board.
    2. FPU goes way beyond just getting out of debt.
    3. To see if it could be a good gift to my family and friends.
    4. I’m in training and am always interested in effective training techniques, thus I wanted to see if DR had effective training techniques.

    Well, it did get my wife a little more on board. Even to get us completely debt free. FPU taught us a lot more than getting out of debt. And it does employ greatly effective training techniques.

    However, I don’t really think it is a good present. People have to want to learn this stuff. You can’t just dump a box of books and DVDs on them. I used to talk up Dave Ramsey and how it got me out of debt to my family/friends a lot…I thought who wouldn’t want to learn how to do that. Well, apparently a lot of people don’t! They have a weird love/hate/dependency with credit or something (I don’t fully understand). And my ‘preachin’ was getting on their nerves. So I stopped.

    LOL…some of them have even asked me for money. I just shrug and say “I don’t borrow or lend money anymore…sorry.”

    If they ever want to learn, I’d gladly buy them FPU as a gift!

  229. I am currently an intern for Dave Ramsey and came across this article questioning Dave’s Christianity through his teachings. I want to say to whomever has read this that Dave does want you to live like no one else. Making the decision for a minivan instead of an SUV to save $30 a month does not necessarily mean that if you do not give what you save to charity, you are a bad person. The idea of being debt-free is having the ability to do want you want with YOUR money. If you decide whether to drive a minivan so that you can give donations to charity as opposed to buying a SUV, does not contemplate the fact if someone is a Christian or not. Being debt free means that you can do many different things with your money: go on a vacation, buy a new car, or give to your church. Keep in mind, Dave encourages listeners and other people involved in classes, etc., to tithe 10% to your church on top of paying debt. There are more ways than one to give back to God. So, when there are more options to do what you want with YOUR money, you can truly live like no one else.

  230. Here is my concern: Dave Ramsey’s website says that over 10,000 churches have used the Financial Peace University in their church. That means that they have each paid $300 for the DVD Leadership Kit. 10,000 churches x $300 is $3 million. Why does Dave Ramsey then need to charge another $100 for a membership kit that the DVD viewers are required to get? It seems like too much money is being charged. I’m not sure why he needs to charge so much, especially when he teaches the importance of being frugal and getting out of debt. A $100 purchase is not being frugal. This knowledge that Dave Ramsey teaches isn’t even something that he invented. I like that the ministry Crown Financial (crown.org)offers their program for a reasonable cost and provides lots of free materials on their site. They put a big emphasis on Biblical financial principles and that all money actually belongs to God. Crown encourages Christians to become financially free so that they can be available to serve God without the limitations of debt. Whereas Dave Ramsey’s site puts an emphasis on prospering, growing wealth, and having a lifetime of financial peace. It seems more humanistic to me. I think that this may not be the best program for a church to promote.

  231. Now you’ve gone and done it! The Ramzealots will be back here on the warpath. It’s been so quiet around here lately too.
    You are spot on right Shari. How much is enough??? If you’re ever in Franklin, drive to the top of the McEwen road exit ramp…that hulking mass on the horizon blocking out the sun is Dave’s new palace. The longer I live here, the more I see his name plastered on some new thing he owns, the more I realize the only one “Living like no one else” is dave himself. The rest are just middle class shmucks who shelled out all that dough for his repackaged advice, (albeit decent advice) and made him a very very wealthy man.
    Ever read the Spirit’s letter to the church at Laodecia in Revelation?

  232. Has anyone seen or heard of the new home that Dave Ramsey is currently building in Cool Springs? When I first saw the framing structure up on the eastern hill of Cool Springs I thought that someone was building a Hotel. I started asking around and found out it was Dave Ramsey. Then I started to think how many people have sent maybe their last dollars… maybe some on the threshold of bankruptcy into his organization to try and save themselves from total destruction and how many people he has told to live below their means it just seems to send a mixed message to me. I have soul searched on this topic on and off. Am I jealous? Do I just not understand? Its his money… spend it how he chooses? I am judging someone? That is wrong. I dont know but in my life I have never posted my feelings on a blog. Obviously this issue bothers me. Especially these days when everyone is struggling with the economic times. There are many famous people that live in the Frankln area. Lots of these people have made money off of secular music and in various businesses. They live in very large mansions too but I never find myself saying anything but wow that must be cool. But my OPINION is people who put themselves on the radar screen to be viewed by the public will get the attention they are asking or looking for. I think its similar to a church. People go to Dave Ramsey for advise on helping them find their way out of the hole there in…they give their money to him for the answers. We give our money to the church but we dont expect our pastor to be driving up on Sunday in a expensive sports car or living in a house that is 4 to 6 times the size/cost of the house we live in. Why not be a little more discreet? I think it sends a mixed signal.
    *Now for the good side. I think Dave Ramsey is a very intelligent speaker and I am sure he means well at the end of the day. He has dreams and ambitions just like all of us.
    I know he has helped tons of people and he should be rewarded/paid for that labor. No one expects him to work for free. He goes to the church where I attend and I have heard him speak. I was blown away with the sermon he spoke earlier this year at our church. I know we all have dreams of living the good life and by all means if I am wrong here, please forgive my comments. I do plenty of things wrong too. Just wonder what other people think?

  233. Hi Dan,

    You make some good points.

    But at the end of the day, it looks like we both agree that Dave Ramsey is a good guy that has helped a lot of people. If he has given the portion of his income that belongs to God to God, who are we to say what he should do with the rest? A huge castle on a hill may not be what you or I would do with the money, but for some reason God didn’t see fit to give us enough money to build it anyway so it is a non-issue for us.

    Do you think Job, King David, or King Solomon lived in a meager home? Do you think Christ’s reward in heaven will be equal to your’s or mine? Should he request something more meager?

  234. Oh my God! Brent…buddy…back up and look at what you just wrote! You drop the names of David, Solomon, and Job AND Jesus Christ as a vindicator of Ramsey’s extravagant lifestyle. Come ON man. We’ve had some serious go-rounds here and I think more of you than THAT. Can’t you just admit that the guy is an egomaniac beyond peer? EVERYTHING he does is about what is best for Dave…PERIOD. How many MILLIONS of people could be eating right now with what he is spending on that palatial money pile off McEwen drive. He LOVES his social standing dude. How much less could he charge for his “Jackass-in-a-box” FPU given the enourmity of his new house? And Lord knows he must be paying cash for it. So He has a few extra MILLION laying around and decided there wasn’t anything more worthy to spend it on than a house so big it appears on the horizon?
    Again…if the guy wasn’t playing to the churches and throwing his christianity out there as a byword (or BUYword in this case) I wouldn’t care less. But he claims the name of Jesus and I expect FAR better.
    …and he is STILL calling people stupid. Look at the nice house those very stupid people paid for.

  235. Oh Craig,

    You and me will never agree. I’m simply of the opinion that if you earn money, you are free to do with it as you wish. At least that is what Peter said to Ananias and Saphira. Wasn’t it your money to do as desired?

    My point is God’s people don’t have to live like poor people. God has some very rich people and I don’t have a judgmental or jealous spirit toward them. I’m sure I could look at most of them and find a way I would assume better to use their wealth. But for some reason, God hasn’t seemed fit to bless me with millions.

    Only God knows our heart. If Dave Ramsey is really the person you seem to think he is, he will certainly reap what he has sewn.

  236. Brent,
    I know you read my blogs from time to time. I know you know where I’ve been recently. It’s funny because I have actually imagined Ramseyites wagging their finger at me and sying “See I told you so” and then calling me stupid with Dave’s reckless abandon. The funny thing is, despise the guy as I do, I was basically a “follower” of Davism. Not in the Zombie-esque way his true Ramzealots are…I am a LOT smarter about where I buy things than to plunk down my money to his price-bloated sponsors…but I had the emergency fund, my TOTAL consumer debt was $3500 and I have never owned a new car. My house was modest…especially in Williamsnon County terms…in fact compared to that personal zip-code he is building high on a hill so the world can see, it was a shack. But my industry collapsed and I lost everything. Is that Dave’s fault? hell no! But…had I called His Ramseyness he would have been his usual arrogant, realtor minded high-browed jackass persona and called me stupid for one reason or another. Now more than ever, I have learned the truth in the statement that “if it’s Christian it ought to be better” and Dave Ramsey is NOT BETTER. PERIOD. 30 years ago, back home in Philly, there was a guy named Harry S. Gross who had a local show called “Speaking of your money”. Harry was not a believer. He was also not arrogant, not boastful, not slapping his name on anything that sad idle for 30 seconds, and he never ever berated anybody who called. His advice was identical to Ramsey’s. (Nothing Ramsey says is unique to him except when he calls people stupid)
    Here is my take…Ramseys enormous ego got him into the trouble he was in years ago and he still has the same ego. It’s just that he found a way to get very very wealthy off of other people making the same mistakes he made. Again…thats the American way I guess, but it is NOT Christs way. Jesus was NEVER an arrogant ass. EVER. NOT EVEN ONCE! There is no excuse nor justification for this behavior. That Dave Ramsey is rich and has had earthly success is NO sign that he is square with God. God is a covenant God. he blesses the tithe and He honors certain principles regardless of whether the other party is a jerk. That truth is all through scripture. Dave may be wealthy but he is surrounded by people who are either remoras, seeking a crumb, or those who secretly despise him. (I’ve met LOTS of those) His wealth is NO INDICATOR of his stance with God! THAT, my friend, (and I do mean that Brent) is the very spirit of the Church of Laodecia. “I am rich and I am wealthy and I HAVE NEED OF NOTHING”
    …and that knock on the door is Jesus trying to get into his own church. Or in this case, the throne room of someone who claims to follow Him.
    I don’t care that the man is wealthy. I honestly don’t. I love this country and this country is founded on that possibility. One of my favorite Americans is Ron Popeil! But I can emphatically say that Jesus Christ would no behave the way Dave Ramsey does…period. He is neither David nor Solomon, nor Job. He is a man who capitalizes on the fact that church people like doing business with church people and if you attach a verse to anything, someone in the church will bite. That is LCD in my book.

  237. I agree Craig. Gain does not equal Godliness. Dave Ramsey’s wealth is no indication of his spiritual walk.

    Where I disagree is that the best indicator of his spiritual walk is for God to decide. What can I say about it? I’d have to pull the log out of my own eye before I started picking splinters out of his. (I mean that directed toward me and not you.)

    How are things going for you? Have things improved? The economy is in a real mess right now! Yikes….

  238. Okay friend…we’ll let it ride.
    I have come to appreciate your stances and consider you an “e-friend”.
    I am doing much better. Life took some funny turns but God is good and He uses anything we lay at His feet. even our poverty and devastation. In fact, I am speaking tonight at 3rd and Lindsley at a benefit concert for the Nashville Rescue Mission. I am the token homeless guy, I guess.
    Actually I spent my first weekend in my new apartment this past weekend. It was wonderful to sleep in my own bed again. But to be honest, the desolation of the front seat of my Volvo did have it’s moments. God really used that period to touch me and reshape me and i am thankful for it, as difficult as it was.
    How about you? All is well?
    Hey, email me directly so I can avoid loggin in here every time we talk.

  239. What circumstances have happened to you Craig? What is your blog? I’m not here to make fun of you or say I told you so…I’m genuinely asking about what you are going through. We all are facing potential tough times. My company is tanking very quickly. I will say this…you obviously don’t like Ramsey (which is okay)…but because of listening to him, I’m in position to weather a pretty big storm if it happens. Obviously I could be in this same position without having listened to him…but listening to him, even if it is the same message said by others, gave me the motivation and step by step plan to be where I am today.

    Good luck with whatever you are facing.

  240. Never mind…I found both of your blogs. I will say this…your writings on those blogs is completely different from your posts on this one. It’s painfully obvious that you really love your daughter. I respect you for that. Single dads get a bad rap in this country. Keep that girl at the top of your priority list. I have 2 daughters myself (5 and 1 month).

    I won’t comment about your homeless situation because I have yet to face that in my life, and hope I don’t.

    But what I was most shocked by was your July 18th post where you removed the Dave Ramsey posts from your blog. Here are two of the reasons you said you did it:

    (A) By attacking the guy I am no better than I claim he is. If I knew him personally I’d say these things to him as a Christian rebuking another Christian. But I don’t.
    (D) I felt bad about it. It’s stupid I know…(pun intended) But Dave Ramsey has never done anything to me personally so what do I really care if he is abrasive. I have a few other issues with the guy but honestly…none of them are eternal matters, nor have they ever effected my life or cut into my paycheck. So why get riled up? I get riled up to easily anyway. So Dave, if you’re out there…I apologize for putting you in my crosshairs, (although maybe 10 people a day read this blog so who’d even know?) it was unnecessary. If you think there might be some merit to my plea for you to show a little more compassion, then, great. If not…I don’t listen anyway so who cares.

    So why the change of heart on your own blog when you can attack and rail against Dave Ramsey on this blog? Doesn’t that make you a hypocrite? You even apologized to Dave Ramsey for “putting you in my crosshairs”, yet have continued to fire grenades at him on this site. I don’t get it.

    But on a personal note, I hope you book sells well enough to reverse your current fortunes in life. I also hope that judge gets what is coming to her one day. You don’t deserve that result given your circumstances. Keep fighting the good fight on that front.

  241. Dave Ramsey is great! I listen to his program often, and have used his debt snowball method, along with the Total Money Makeover to pay off $10,000 in credit card debt, build up a $10,000 emergency fund (which I NEVER thought was possibe – the most I ever had in savings was $300), and now my wife and I are attacking our student loans.
    Someone mentioned Dave building a big house…so freaking what? It’s his money…he earned every dime of it. Why do we no expect Dave Ramsey to live like someone who is in debt, when he is debt free and a millionaire many times over, all from HIS hard work?

    You folks need to get a grip.

  242. I have spent an hour reading this thread (almost every word) from the very first post.

    First off, let me state that every single person is entitled to their own opinion – as we have all read above. So here is mine.

    I don’t care what religion Dave is or anyone else for that matter. Almost all religious denominations usually have a common foundation of morals, values and antidotes for people to follow to live faithful happier lives. Basically guidelines to help humanity live peacefully. Dave’s references to the bible and whatnot are all just common sense ideals.

    BOTTOM LINE: There is no reason to go into debt. Buying anything with money you don’t have is a stupid thing to do. It’s an immature, “I want it now” attitude. Any debt you have is a risk you take that you may not be able to pay back, and then when interest piles up, you find yourself in a situation of facing BK.

    More importantly, we need to understand that YES, Dave Ramsey claimed BK after being a millionaire. He went through the gauntlet and when he came out he tells people to avoid it at all costs because:

    – Then mental and emotional toll it has taken on him

    – The fact that even after 7 years, when certain types of BK are cleared from your credit report, you still need to state on any job or mortgage application that you had once filled for BK. Again, even if it isn’t on your report. If you do, it’s considered a felony.

    – And yes, probably the embarrassment he had to face with his family, friends and people from his church.

    Why would he want to promote any of the above to someone? However, he does say, that depending on your situation, it may be the only choice. His belief is that you need to reconsider your behavior that put you into debt and in a position to have to consider BK in the first place. It’s that behavior he is trying to change.

    Here’s the deal people…. Dave Ramsey uses his wealth to try and help people. He can’t give away books, buy radio broadcasting studio time or equipment, have a counseling company, travel with a team and rent a venue to speak or create software without any income. SO what he does, as any capitalist business person would do, is charge a reasonable price for his materials.

    He is an inspiration and I use his advice to better my financial situation, my peace of mind and my personal relationships. With that said, there are seven ways to skin a cat, so I wish the best to all of you and hope that regardless if you have to go through a BK or not, that you make it out okay and get to do the things in life that you have always wanted to.

    Cheers to all!

  243. See…this is what I mean! The last two posters just continue the same old drumbeat that EVERY Ramzealot bangs away here. “(best if said with a severe twang) Day-uv is great man! We praise Gawduh for Dav-uvs course, and Day-uv’s minis-tray! We don’t have us no debt no more and it’s all because of Day-uv. If Day-uv wants to spend his money on another ego museum who cares? It’s his money!) Well first of all it’s YOUR money that you and other idiots forked over by the HUNDREDS to buy what someone else has given away for years…but that is capitalism so who cares…God bless’em. Buy my book while you’re at it. But MY point has ALWAYS been Daves arrogant, crass, insulting, despicable abusive manner of addressing the same desperate people he was (and I contend still IS deep inside) and doing it in Jesus name. And NOBODY ever renounces it! Nobody! You skip over that and tell me how great his course is and how you used it and have no debt and you are glad he is rich. And I have always said I don’t care that he is rich, (except that he gained a lot of that money at the cost of his integrity in my opinion) my concern is he signs Jesus name to his generally being an ass. And you don’t care!! But you know what??? I figured it out. I was in church Sunday and had my epiphany. We were doing an emphasis on orphanage, as my church is launching an orphanage ministry and a statistic was shown on the screen. In Williamson County TN, (where both Dave and I live…I live in an apartment, Dave’s new house is bigger than my entire complex) most orphaned kids are placed in foster homes OUSIDE the county. Now Williamson county is among the 10 wealthiest in the U.S. So it isn’t a money issue, right? You know what it is? NOBODY CARES! Thaey are ALL so consumed with making “piles of cash” and then paying off debt so they can build monster houses, that they don’t give a DAMN that kids are being shipped off when they could help. SHAME ON YOU Williamson County! THAT is the Exact attitude that Ramsey carries around and that he promulgates. And THAT is the attitude of people who defend his shitty actions on-air and…if you know his rep around town…in person. He is no bigger a star anywhere in the world than he is in his own mind. I’ve heard LOTS of stories. Ask yourself this…what if Dave hadn’t been able to take his repackaged Larry Burkett advice that he called his first book and successfully sell it? What if WTN hadn’t been almost bankrupt at the time he had a book to market and they gave him free airtime? (Why did he change the name from “The Money Game” to “The Dave Ramsey Show” hmmm) what if this was a flop? what do you think he’d be doing right now? He’d be living like the rest of us, pal. A mortgage, a car loan and a credit card or two. Don’t kid yourself. He probably wouldn’t go do it all again, but he’d be saddles with the same cares we all are and he’d have to make the same real world decisions we do. How do I know??? he already has a nice house and he’s building a hotel-sized monolith high on the hill. Good for him, but somewhat suspect to me if you’re REALLY going to live as no one else. his ego got him in trouble years ago and he still has it. He just has figured out a way to make more money that his ego can spend without the guilts. Wake up and stop defending his boorishness. I don’t care that he makes money…I want to make money…but he acts like an unfettered turd to people and does it in Jesus name. call a spade a spade and LISTEN to EVERYTHING I wrote not just the part you don’t like because secretly you wish YOU were building that big house. Read revelation 3…the letter to the Laodecians…it’s the letter to Ramsey and people with that attitude.

  244. Craig,

    Let it go man. Who cares anymore? Just me, you, and the occasional visitor.

    I hope you and your daughter had a great Christmas.

    Just curious, isn’t “call a spade a spade” a racist remark? I’m not making accusations, it’s just in the context I’ve heard it before, it isn’t a very nice thing to say.

    Being from the south, I’ve picked up a few of those sayings that I never knew were offensive. When I was 19 I was talking to a man I just met and mentioned I was trying to “jew” someone down on the price of a car. He got so mad! He started saying, I’m jewish. It never clicked for me. I’m standing there like……uh so? It took a minute for that one to sink in.

  245. Craig, I agree with you.
    I read a few sentences from the posts you mentioned and knew it was the same old drumbeat so didn’t waste my time finishing reading them.
    Ramsey doesn’t seem to care if a person has spend several years being held hostage by a credit card co. Someone who has actually paid the balance and much more in loan shark interest and outrageous fees should say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and simply walk away or file bankruptcy.

    Ramseys solution is to just work out a plan and pay it. I think that is ridiclous! Anyone who has been held hostage and paid through the roof and all that is left is more interest and fees is foolish to pay loan shark interest and fees ! Who in hell cares about a credit score? Certainly not Ramsey since last I heard he says it doesn’t matter !
    A person needs to live, have an emergency fund , pay essentials and you can’t do that when you are paying loan shark interest and “penalaty” fees to barracudas !
    The credit card co’s can change the terms of the agreement and so can consumers . Oh, but Ramsey and his followers always say,, you agreed to the terms. So what? Nobody, no matter how foolish they have been with credit cards should be held hostage by greedy credit card companies.

  246. Brent…I think the “call a spade a spade” is a card players phrase if I’m not mistaken. I had a very disturbing occurence once back home years ago. I was working constructionand the “roach coach” lunch wagon rolled up and I ordered a hotdog and then asked the guy for some kraut for my dog. The whole place went silent like I had farted in church and the guy goes off on me! He rolls up his sleeve and shows me his tattoo where he had been imprisoned in Dachau! he hated germans so much he wouldn’t even carry sauerkraut on his truck! How was I supposed to know, right? And even so…sauerkraut?? I wanted to tell him the chinese also ferment cabbage but I didn’t want a scene. Glad I didn’t drive a VW

  247. Once again Craig, why do you feel comfortable attacking Ramsey on someone elses blog when you didn’t feel so comfortable on your own. These are your own words:

    (A) By attacking the guy I am no better than I claim he is. If I knew him personally I’d say these things to him as a Christian rebuking another Christian. But I don’t.
    (D) I felt bad about it. It’s stupid I know…(pun intended) But Dave Ramsey has never done anything to me personally so what do I really care if he is abrasive. I have a few other issues with the guy but honestly…none of them are eternal matters, nor have they ever effected my life or cut into my paycheck. So why get riled up? I get riled up to easily anyway. So Dave, if you’re out there…I apologize for putting you in my crosshairs, (although maybe 10 people a day read this blog so who’d even know?) it was unnecessary. If you think there might be some merit to my plea for you to show a little more compassion, then, great. If not…I don’t listen anyway so who cares.

  248. Easy…sister of Dave…my previous Dave rants were just that…rants. I went after him for the sake of doing so. I was wrong about attack for attack sake. I even changed my position some about him. But in the months that followed he has whored himself out even MORE if that were possible, and his own personal greed and largesse is more and more out of hand. On top of that, having now gone through my own financial tragedy, I particularly abhor this man. My apology was because I posted about him on MY blog which was never intended to be a Ramsey Blog. This one IS. You are probably a local and don’t understand that. I tried to cut him some slcak and all that and every time I do, he opens his irritating obnoxious mouth. Like he did on Fox and friends when he called a man stupid who had just lost everything when Indymac folded. Now he is building his NEWEST, (not first, just newest) Dave Museum. High on a hill for all to see. Face it…cousin of Dave…he is the EXACT same egomaniacal, internally small, trying desperately to be important guy he was when he got in over his head selling real estate. He just found a way to sell to the most reliable customer base in the world…The Church. As a business man he is good. As a MAN and particularly as a Christian man as he claims, he is disgusting. I wonder what Jesus…who had “nowhere to lay His head” would say when He sees the monstrousity King David is now building while the money could be better used elsewhere. How about he cuts the cost of his nearly plagiraized “FPU” to $25 a pop and decides he has enough and to spare?? HAH! Good luck waiting for that to happen.
    You HAVE to be on his payroll to defend his despicable actions like you do. I wish I could meet you face to face and see how you could look me in the eye and tell me Jesus would BEHAVE the way this joker does. I don’t care how much money he has. God doesn’t measure success by the size of your “pile of cash”. None of the furits of the Spirit involve money and they sure don’t create a person who would attack people who are already broken and hurting and embarrassed. I bet you live in Williamson County too, huh?

  249. For the record, as each day goes by and he proves me right, I feel more comfortable attacking him anywhee I can. I might even go write his name on a bathroom wall somewhere tonight just for kicks!

  250. OKay..I’ve had a drink and I’m calm. (just kidding about the drink part) I’m going to difuse this bomb with you and I and then if you keep defending this leech whatever happens happens but you need to know where I am coming from.
    First of all, I don’t know you except where we interact here. You might be a swell person, so I apologize for blurring the lines between what I feel for this joker and what I shouldn’t feel for his defenders. You aren’t him. You might be the wonderful person he never will be for all I know.
    That said…let me give you my position and I’ll be more personal than I was months ago. There were things going on then that I didn’t want to introduce into the conversation for fear it would look like I was just a railing bitter loser.
    In the last 18 months I lost everything. And I mean everything! House, job, car, most of my possessions, and eventually, because my ex wife could care less what happened to the world economy, my freedoms. (She took me to court because I could not keep up with $1000 per month child support for our daughter. She also wouldn’t agree to modify, even though my income was cut by 80%) This was going on while Ego-man was ranting about the banking system as if he had a shred of a shadow of a clue as to what really precipitated it all. That never stopped him from voicing his ignorance loudly, coated with a thick covering of “I told you so” to boot. He was (and is) smug in a way that I will never get used to. He is the kind of man who would drive up on an accident scene where little kids were ejected from a car and died and scream at the grieving parents “people who don’t buckle their kids are STUPID!”
    I slept in my car for three and a half months. I was in my car when I posted some of those anti amsey rants. You didn’t know THAT either did you? When I lost my whole life I only owed $3500 in consumer debt.
    I have always driven used vehicles. I love to cook and seldom eat out. We take vacations back home and stay with family. I had a little savings although that is hard when you are paying a grand a month for one child who wears hand me downs while her nurse mother and second husband make over $150,000 a year. (if you want to get into the inequities of the divorce court system we can do that next)
    All I heard from Ramseyites at my church and elsewhere was “just work your azz off” “go get a second job” and the same old BS he spouts everyday. Did you ever realize how difficult it is to get a job when you are in jail from Friday at 6pm until midnight Sunday night? Impossible. Ever try applying for a job without a mailing address? Strike two. I had to hide this from my daughter..the only time I ever lied to her in her 11 years. I had to give away our two beloved springer spaniels and out cat. I still haven’t broken that news to my daughter because I can’t figure out how yet. (she thinks they are still being boarded)All this happened and I got nothing form known Ramzealots except chiding and “what I would do in your shoes” pseudo-advice. They wouldn’t know what to do in my shoes. They don’t have the guts. Or the integrity. If you wonder why it pissed me off so much when he was on TV calling a man he had never met and never would meet “stupid” because a major bank collapsed and the guy lost everything…now you know. I WAS the same guy. I guarantee you Dave Ramsey couldn’t make it the way I did. He would have taken some chicken-poop way out and hocked his soul for a buck. because thats what he already has done. it doesn’t take any integrity to re-write someone elses bok and teach it to christians under the guise of it being “inspired” and more godly than any other way of thinking. It just takes balls and a lack of integrity. It shows no integrity to rail against mortgage companies for things you know NOTHING about, (I’ve heard him myself) while the mortgage company you “endorse” is known for having the highest rates around. It shows NO integrity to call people stupid for pawning belongings and then endorsing a pawn shop every ten minutes. It shows no integrity to claim your financial philosophy is all about saving money, spending as little as possible and getting the best deal and then attacking a for sale by owner program with a proven track record that costs the user ZERO, al because you were a realtor, your momma and daddy were realtors and your biggest sponsor is a realtor. NO INTEGRITY…NONE.
    Integrity means you are the same person with the same life philosophy all the time and you are not for sale. It means if you say you believe in certain principles you follow them 100% all the time regardless of who is ,ining your pockets. And it means, especially, that if you claim to be a Christian, you follow all the teachings of Christ, not just the ones that grow your personal balance sheet. You don’t say anything He wouldn’t say and act like you are speaking for him.
    As you can see…I have EARNED the right to vehemently decry this man. Again…if he wants to stop pretending he is above other “finance gurus” because of his 30 second homage to “the Prince of Peace” that he ends every show with, I’d say good on ya and make all the money you want. But his attitude is disgusting and unChristlike. And after all I went through I learned more about the heart of Jesus…my HOMELESS Savior…than I ever learned about acruing more wealth. Dave sounds like he just learned how to say a few trite words so the eager-buying Christian consumer can feel better about the greed he teaches.
    It’s all about his attaching his own largesse and hubris to Jesus so he feels better about himself. And THAT…and really only that…is why I went back on the warpath against him. he could have been such a beacon of love and hope and grace and mercy to those people who lost it all. Instead he called a broken man “stupid” because it was on national TV and he likes the way it sounds as it leaves his lips. He blew it! He should, in my opinion, repent, walk away for a long period, and ponder whether he needs ANY of the multitude of excessive toys and possessions he has. I am not a commie. I love capitalism. But when Jesus is being wounded I must protest. If oyu claim to follow Jesus and you don’t see the damage this man does by acting in an unChristlike manner and calling it Christlike…you need to do a checkup too.
    I wonder why you are so obsessed with his defense? Is it okay to be a crass jerk because Dave is? (I am not saying you are one, but I have wondered if that is the only reason people put up with his nonsense…that was a rhetorical)
    Let’s let it ride after this. Brent was right, the only people who care are you and me and a few others and it seems nobody is budging.

  251. Obviously I knew your situation because I’ve read both your blogs. I actually feel horrible for you for the situation with your daughter. As for the living in your car part, that is not Dave Ramseys fault. It’s not the mortgage industries fault. It’s your fault. It’s your fault because you didn’t have a fallback plan. You might have only owed $3500 in consumer debt…but you obviously didn’t have an emergency fund either. Weren’t there some very prosperous times in the mortgage industry over the past 5 years? You obviously know and respect Burkett’s plan. So why didn’t you follow it? That $1000 a month you sent to your ex-wife isn’t why you ended up homeless either. I work in a very volatile industry right now. 1/3rd of my group was let go last month. But I can say this, if I lost my job tomorrow, we wouldn’t be living in a car in 3 months. Do you know why? Because Ramsey motivated me to get my financial life in order. So I have a full emergency fund that would enable to me still take care of my stay at home wife and 2 daughters for much longer than 3 months. He motivated me to have a plan. His get out of debt plan isn’t unique. Neither was Larry Burketts or any of the other people out there. But Ramsey is what finally motivated me to protect my family, the most important people in my life. And here is the thing…we were debt free except for our mortgage when I picked up his book. But we fought constantly about money and gave very litte at church. Now we don’t fight and we give 10% to church and more to others. I credit Ramsey for motivating me to finally win with money.

    Ramsey isn’t perfect. In fact, he does come across as arrogant. I’ve met him and I got the same opinion. But I respect the way he motivates people to make changes. You say he stole everything in FPU. Do you realize that most of the lessons in FPU don’t deal with budgeting or getting out of debt? There is an insurance lesson, real estate lesson, investing lesson, college and retirement lesson, a lesson on negotiating, a lesson on how we are marketed to so that we can be aware of these, a lesson on spouses and money and children and money. It’s not just Crown Financial with a new label. But that doesn’t matter. Ramsey is not a preacher. He’s a businessman that is also a Christian. So what if churches make up a large part of his business. Do you hold grudges against companies that supply equipment to churches? Are they held to a higher standard as well? He runs a for profit company that he started from his living room…and did it all without debt. Good for him.

    You said in a post up above that Ramsey would have a mortgage, credit card, and car loan just like the rest of us if he hadn’t lucked up with his timing. A say BS. They made the decision to not borrow money again when they were broke…and I believe him when he says he has stuck to those convictions. I’ve made those same convictions. I’ll never have another car payment, no matter what. When I finish paying off my mortgage, I will never borrow another dollar. I say that with complete conviction and I’m not rich.

    The truth is, your last several posts have revealed the real problem. They reek of envy. Who cares the size of his new house? I sure don’t. I find it impressive that a multi millionare has lived in a 353k house (current value of about 550k) for as long as they have. They bought a lake house for about $130k despite being millionares (all of this info is public record). But you envy what he has. You talk about orphanages and say he is evil because he’s building a big house. I guarantee you that he gives a MUCH greater percentage of his income to charities than you give of yours. I just looked it up and he paid over 1.5 Million for his new lot. Why do you have issue with that? Add the cost of his new mansion and it still represents a far smaller percentage of his income than my house is of mine. But because he is a christian, he is not allowed to live in a huge house if he wants to? Do you have problems with Bill Gates having a 65 Million dollar home? Why not? Why do you have such an issue with Ramseys home. He earned that money. And most of his income probably comes from his radio show, not FPU or his books. But so what if it comes from FPU or the books. You are trying to sell a book and your blogs are full of Christian rhetoric. Ramsey often sells his books for less than what you are trying to sell yours for. You yap about the cost of FPU. He also employs 250 people in the Nashville area. I find $100 to be quite reasonable. My wife and I paid $40 to sit through 6 hours of “Good Sense” budgeting offered by our church. Would you consider that reasonable? The value of FPU was far greater. No one is forced to take it…but I just received an email today from a woman that took it in the fall of 07 that is now debt free. She lost her job in October and is now able to take a riskier, but dream job because she is out of debt. That motivation came from FPU. But honestly, I don’t need to defend him. Just remember that envy is one of those seven deadly…

    I sincerely wish you the best of luck with the situation with your daughter. As a dad of 2 of them (1 now 7 weeks old), I can’t imagine the pain of dealing with that.

    But for the rest of the stuff you went through, I hope that you learned from it and will never allow yourself to be back in that situation again. But you need to quit being a hypocrite yourself. Go back and read your posts again. They drip with envy and hypocrisy. And any one that comes on here the least bit supportive of Ramsey is a Ramseyite or zealot. It’s time you got over it and got on with fixing your life. Only you can fix the problems in your life. One more thing, I do not live in Tennessee. Good luck to you Craig Daliessio.

  252. Well well well…you filled in blanks as you saw fit and passed judgement along with it. Nice. How do you know I didn’t have an “emergency fund”? And how do you know so much about what Ramsey paid for his houses? It’s creepy. Here’s what I’ll tell you…and now having read this pathetic response of yours, I’m going to let it fly because you deserve all the same venom as the ass you so willingly worship. I hope your life collapses pal. You don’t have what it takes inside to live through what I did. You are so busy trying figure out how Dave worship would have helped me and so arrogantly gleeful that you “follow Dave”, that you don’t see, (and I didn’t until you just filled in the blanks) you are JUST LIKE HIM. You are arrogant, judgemental, greedy, self-impressed, faithless, idolatrous, and as despicable as his followers are. Sadly, you might be stupider than any other Ramzealot I’ve ever met. Because you actually, through your bizarre obsession with defending this turd, KNOW more about him than the minions who check their brains at the door and buy that overpriced clap he peddles, and you defend him as if he was the fourth member of the godhead. Every Ramseyite I’ve ever met is the same as you. Arrogant. As if ANYTHING that jackass teaches you makes you one bit better than anyone else. It doesn’t, but you LOVE thinking and acting like it does. Let me tell you something pally, you better pray to God that you never face what I did. I can see from your shallowness and need of a pathetic hero like that napoleonesque carny barker, that you wouldn’t make it. You’d be the first to deride God for letting it happen, or start attacking people in a weekend jail for being so beneath you, and mostly, you’d be scratching your head and quitting because when you boil it down, the best plans a man can make can be turned upside down in an instant. I resisted it for about 3 weeks and then began the deepest, wildest, most incredibly wonderful and incredibly painful spiritual journey of my Christian life. I let go of the wheel and yelled “Bonzai” and saw moment by moment what God would do next. And I guarantee you I ended up with something Dave Ramsey or anyone who bows at his altar of self righteous arrogance will NEVER have. The ability to trust God in ANYTHING and be thankful. Not find a way to sell it, not con others into buying “my” new system, certainly not by attacking anyone who is RIGHT WHERE I WAS because it makes me feel a little better about my own mistakes. This was about Ramsey but now it’s about you. You are an arrogant putz. You think you are superior because you followed someone else instead of finding out what GOD HAD FOR YOU SPECIFICALLY. That’s tragic. That’s shallow. That’s the sign of a small mind and a horribly fearful heart. Dave Ramsey sucks. Plain and simple, and my personal belief is that Jesus doesn’t think he is funny, or amusing, or even on the right track. I think, seeing the Christ of the bible in action, Ramseys books would have been on those tables Jesus flipped over in the temple. I think Ramsey could have been the rich guy who told Jesus “I’ve done all this since my youth” and when Jesus said “give all you have to the poor and come follow me” he went away sad because he had MUCH. (Aramaic for “piles of cash??”) As a business man, he has done a great job building an empire. But we aren’t here for that, are we? I’m not against getting rich. But I am against making that the goal of your life when you BUILT YOUR MARKETING PLAN AROUND THE BODY OF CHRIST. It steams me. It hurts me to my soul because it is so against eveything Jesus was on this earth. He became a “man of no reputation” and yet Dave Ramsey can’t wait to buy another building and slap his name on it. My guess is he gives EXACTLY one tenth so he can be exactly as obedient as God asks, and nothing more. I may never know. But his actions make it easy for me to assume that. Have you ever shivered in the dark as you slept in your car? Could you do that and thank God for it? Or would you be screaming at someone in that position to “be throwing boxes at UPS tonight”? What if they couldn’t do that? Are they less? What if a person has been so beaten up by life in areas outside of finances, that they just stopped caring about following some egomaniacs plan. Do you throw them under the next bus? Ramsey…and apparently you, couldn’t care less about PEOPLE except the ones who buy his book or call his show. The buyers make him rich and the callers make his show entertaining, because apparently a couple of million people like hearing on-air abuse. It’s the same reason pro wrestling is wildly popular. There isn’t anything of substance there either but we love projecting our own hatred onto some “heel” and thinking we are the “face”. As for the “Insurance lesson” or the “real estate lesson” (I threw up in my mouth a little on that one) ask someone in those industries how perfectly awful his advice is. It’s fool proof as long as you are already a fool. People never question it because they are sitting in a church when they hear it. You actually used the words “conviction” when describing this man. I have to laugh at that. He has no conviction. He is for sale to the highest bidder. Period. Ramsey is selling his book for less than mine because he prints them himself and has a disty deal with Nelson. (a deal he won’t be renewing by the way, the publishing industry is in turmoil) I’d sell mine a few dollars cheaper too if I wasn’t being charged $9 a pop for each sale by the publisher.
    Hey…I’m glad you have a hero, mine was Jesus, yours is a guy who thinks he speaks for him. (so did Manson by the way) I’m glad you feel better defending this turd and ignoring the screaming deficits in his integrity and the insanely unChristlike way he carries himself while shouting his own greatness at the top of his lungs. I’m glad you are a regular reader of my blogs. It’s creepy and you need a hobby but hey, a web hit is a web hit. I’m surprised you bother with a guy who doesn’t think he has the only answers to all the questions and who doesn’t call anyone stupid except for people who call people stupid. I’m out of your demographic, but for me, thats a good thing.
    Regards…

  253. One more thing I should have picked up…
    “Now we don’t fight and we give 10% to church and more to others. I credit Ramsey for motivating me to finally win with money.” You really think that was Ramsey and THAT is because thats what he wants you to think! That, my friend, was God working in your life and by the time you were redy to be changed ANY teaching on money would have done the job.
    …and THAT is whats wrong with Ramsey!

  254. I hate it when I send my response too soon…
    here’s somethig else I need to say…you said you hope I “learned from it and never allow myself to go back into ti again”. Let me tell you, and I hope I can express the sincerity with which I say this…if not for my daughter I can tell you I already miss it! I miss waking up in the middle of a cold night and shivering in the front seat of my car and asking out loud through tears “God, where are you” and hearing His wondrous, loving response, “right here where I said I’d be”. I miss the men I saw each weekend and actually became friends with and began to minister too from the inside of the weekend jail, in a way no one can who isn’t in that situation. I miss the looks on the guards faces when I thank them for their kindness when they say “have a good week” on discharge. I worry I’ll lose the sensitivity I learned that makes me see homeless men and empty my very sparse pockets because I know how they feel and I don’t really care how they got there. I worry I’ll go back to being just another man in pursuit of my own cash piles. I am pursuing them make no mistake, but I wouldn’t trade what I lived through for a million piles of cash. I saw first hand the humility of Jesus as He stayed with me in my darkest hours. I learned how HIs heart breaks because of the condition of mens lives and not a WIT because of what got them there. I heard Him weeping with me when I wept. If God asked me to walk that valley again I’d run to the entrance. I’d be afraid, I’d wonder what He was up to, I’d be concerned about my daughter. But I’d know He was doing whatever was best for me and I would have missed it had I just “worked three jobs and had a garage sale”. That’s not for everyone, but the attitude sure is. I’ve heard Dave Ramsey attack multitides of people but I’ve never heard him weep on his show. I’ve never heard him speechless and overwhelmed not because of all he has restocked his shelves with, but because of the pain of those who have crashed and burned. See, thats what Jesus did, Hebrews 4:15 says “He was TOUCHED by those things that make us frail and weak”. The translation means He literally felt them with us so He could understand our plight. It didn’t change His approach and make Him start preaching a system for success and accumulation, it formulated His teaching that the least shall be greatest and the last shall be first. Because He knew that money means nothing but people are eveything. Ramsey doesn’t get that at all.

  255. You really are full of yourself aren’t you? I’m really sick of you saying that I worship Ramsey. I worship my Triune God only. I do respect Ramsey and have seen firsthand how his program has impacted peoples lives. That isn’t worship you ass. As for how I know how much he paid, it’s public recored. http://www.williamson-tn.org/assessor/assr_search.php?first_rec=0&name=ramsey+dav&street=&sub=&map=&parcel=&search=Submit+Query I looked it up because I was curious how he lived. I look up plenty of property records.

    Now you come on here all self righteous like you are the only person to ever suffer loss in your life. I don’t need to read your book because I’ve suffered the pain of divorce and managed to reclaim my life and develop a renewed relationship with my Heavenly Father. Plenty of people suffer. I’m glad you learned so much from losing nearly everything you have. Good for you. I’d rather not experience that myself…and I’ve taken steps that I believe will keep that from happening. I don’t care if you followed Ramsey’s program. It doesn’t affect my life at all. Personally, I do hope you have learned from your experience and take actions to not go through that again…but whatever.

    Now what you have absolutely no right to do is to come on here and question my relationship with my Lord and Savior. You don’t know jack squat about me other than I like Ramsey’s programs and don’t think it’s too expensive. I haven’t questioned yours, although I do find you to be a hypocrite and self righteous. I give plenty of my time and talents to furthering God’s work. I don’t need to explain what or justify it to you.

    This blog has gotten way too personal. You seem to have no problem attacking anyone, so I think it is time we end this. I do hope that your blog somehow raises awareness of how unfair fathers are treated in divorce. The way your rights have been violated with regards to your daughter should be criminal. I completely respect what I’ve read about you as a father. Good for you. As for the rest of it, I think you need to deal with your envy and get over yourself.

    For anyone else reading this, we’ve gotten way off track. Ramsey is not a savior. He has a program that is entertaining and motivating. The material isn’t new or ground breaking. I personally feel it is worth the cost, but you don’t have to spend any money at all to get the message. You can listen to his radio show or go to the library and check out his books if you want. Please don’t be influenced by my opinion or Craig’s opinion. Do what is right for you and your family. We are facing very difficult economic times. Whether you follow Ramsey’s plan, Crown Financial, John Commutta, or whatever, take the steps you need to get out of debt and stay out of debt. Build and emergency fund so that your family is protected from life events such as job loss. Live on a budget and live on less than you make. Save money for emergency’s and for retirement. Don’t buy stuff unless you can pay for it. Give a portion of your money to charity (church or other). Giving is one of the great joys you can have in life. It doesn’t have to be much, just trust God that he’ll guide you in that process. It really is that simple.

  256. So when you said I didn’t take care of my daughter, and when you insinuated that you would have made it through when I didn’t because you would have had enough of an emergency plan, when you call me a hypocrite but refuse to admit Ramsey’s enormous daily hypocrisy on a national scale, that was all okay?
    You regularly search public records??? Are you famous? You aren’t Crispin Glover, are you? God isn’t from Triune…He lives in Arrington..ask any middle Tennessean. (Tennessee humor) I am glad you cleared up the fog about which God you worship, there are apparently so many vying for the title. Looks like I hit a nerve Bro.
    The good news is I am italian,and a yankee, so now that you got good and personal and went for my throat, we can be friends. You have my email address…if you send me a land address I’ll send you a free copy of my book…or I’ll write you a check for the $8.79 it costs me to print one to give away. Whichever you want. Kidding about the check, serious about the book. I’m offering a free one if you’d like. Any guy who has endured the battlefield of divorce is okay by me.

    Have a wonderful day.

    (did you know that eggs are also triune?) Just not in the same way

  257. I never said you didn’t take care of your daughter. I think you should be commended for putting up with the crap you do so that you can be an important part of your daughters life. Dads really do get screwed in divorces. I am thankful that I didn’t have kids when I got divorced 10 years ago. It was still the most traumatic experience of my life.

    My point about your situation is not to chide you or put you down. Crown Ministries also talks about the importance of no debt and having an emergency fund. I do know that I can make it through an extended period of time without an income because of the sacrifices we have made. I believe everyone should get out of debt and have an emergency fund. It sure reduces the stress and worry of potential layoffs.

    How about this…I apologize for any personal attacks I’ve done against you. I won’t do anymore. Let’s just agree that we have very different views on Ramsey and leave it at that. Others can make up their own minds.

    As for the book offer, I appreciate it. However, I’m slightly afraid to give you my address 😉

  258. For the record…
    I had the “emergency fund” never spent a bunch of dough…blah blah blah. I petitioned the courts in March to modify my support because my income was so drastically reduced and because the laws had changed in TN, much in my favor. That was June 15th 2008…today is January 8 2009 and they still haven’t gotten to my case yet. So my ex and I (in a rare moment of cooperation on her part) did it ourselves and got the courts signatures yesterday. BUT…until a change is made and signed by the judge…the $1000 keeps getting taken out of my check. Oftentimes these days that left me with zero. It adds up quickly at a grand a month…
    I was producing more loans than ever when the bottom fell out and nobody knew, back then, how long this was going to last. I thought, “I like the work, I have my emergency fund, my company is solid, I’ll ride this out and be the last man standing when it’s over”
    Well almost 2 years later…my company is still around but my market froze solid. My ex got a judgement for arrearage and took the emergency fund lock stock and barrel. Goodbye house, hello Volvo.
    Can’t find a job because of the weekend situation. In fact, I couldn’t even get Domino’s to hire me because Friday and saturday evenings are the prime hours.
    So you see…I did the “Ramsey-esque” things and still was left devastated. I wasn’t stupid. I’m not lazy. It wasn’t my personal lifestyle that caused this. His bloviation about “Look in the mirror…there’s your problem” Well not in my case, Davey boy. And I’m not alone in that. And he has NO way of knowing the difference when someone calls his show and ESPECIALLY when he sees some guy on a news report and jumps to a conclusion without a SHRED of knowledge about the guys story. Good as it might be, sound as you believe it is…Ramseys system is only good if things work out the way you plan for even your “worst case scenario” plans can be wrong. Then what? When you did all you could and followed “The Plan” faithfully and it still wasn’t enough, are you still “Stupid”? Did you still behave irresponsibly? How does that jackass know the difference?
    What if he caught a five second news clip about me, like he did the guy in the IndyMac deal, and made his arrogant “he was stupid!” rant, and then you found out later all that my story entails…would you be so quick to support this clown? Dave Ramsey never did a thing for you, friend. It was YOU! You and your wife…period. Why do you thnk diet books sell so well and yet we keep geting fatter as a nation? because the most motivational speaker in the world with the greatest advice known to man can’t over ride a jelly donut if thats what you want. When you find the willpower to stop eating the donut and drop some weight, that wasn’t because of the diet you followed, it was because of the change within. Ramsey is an “accidental agent of change”. Thats all he is. His crass marketing got him in front of churches FIRST. For all his talk about exploding the way we are marketted to…he tooled every last person who bought his stuff. He created a marketing plan to market to the most trusting consumers on earth. peppered it with enough vernacular that people really thought they were choosing a “more godly” system than the others, and endeared himself to the Church. He created a perceived need and then created the perception that only HIS way properly filled it. It’s marketing 101.
    Again, it’s clever, he’s rich for doing it, and nobody can say they actually LOST because of taking his course. But did they always get the best deals? I know for a fact that his “sponsors” aren’t even close to being the best deals within their chosen fields. They count on that loyalty to Dave. Not just in Mortgages either. Realtors, heating and Air Conditioning, Plumbing…Pawn Shops, insurance. Ten minutes on the phone in ANY one of those areas could get you a much better package. But Christian people feel this absurd obligation to deal with other Christians, even to their own detriment at times.
    “Crown, Ramsey, et al wasn’t enough to get me through in my situation. I’m probably the exception and not therule, but maybe the guy in california who lost his shirt to Indymac was too. Ramsey has no way of knowing but that didn’t stop his arrogance or his insult.
    That is, and has always been, my main issue with his. Jesus would never have done that. He didn’t do it to the woman at the well, or Mary the Magdalene, or even Peter when he betrayed Jesus. The only time we ever saw Jesus irate was railing against Pharasees …and aginst people selling goods in church for a profit. Not selling TO the church (like a pulpit salesman) but selling IN the church. there is a difference. Churches need supplies and services. Chruch building should not be marketplaces.
    That was a more peaceful explaination I think. The offer stands on the book. I am far too busy to drive to N.C. for stalking purposes.
    Let’s declare a cease fire and move on.

  259. Craig,

    I think how you were screwed over by our court system makes a more interesting story than how you feel about Dave Ramsey that never done anything to you. I’d like to hear more about it. Where is your blog located again?

    Brent

  260. Oh man you have no idea! I have resisted ever writing or blogging about the court system or the REAL problem, the TN Dept of Child Support Services. My book never touches on it and I’ve never blogged about it. I have two reasons…OE: there are a million books about the inequities of the courts where fathers are concerned and I didn’t want to get lumped into the category of “whining dad”. I’m not minimizing anyones plight whatsoeevr, but there ARE guys out there who grind their axe by spending their lives fighting the ex in court. My book only addresses MY failures in the marriage and not my ex wifes. It only speaks of my shortcomings as a man going into a marriage. I assumed from the beginning that most folks know it’s 50/50 with the rare exception. I suppose a clean conscience helps too. I have nothing to hide and I was wronged, period. So I don’t feel the need to write an entire book about what “she did to me” or what the court did to me” My whole premise is that every divorce hurts, what does it feel like for a MAN. Women have written divorce books by the thousand. I have yet to have a guy read it and no get back to me with relief that “finaly somsome said all this” and the feeling that now that someone wrote it down, it is okay to say it too.
    You know that song “I’m So Happy That I Can’t Stop crying”? by Toby Keith and Sting? Most people don’t know that it’s a true story and Sting wrote it years before while he was still in The Police. His first marriage dissolving almost ruined him and it was years before he could even speak about it publicly. Most of his pain was about time lost with his son.
    Reason TWO: Easy…in davidson county there is ONE judge who hears every single diorce case and post – divorce proceeding. You piss her off and you are screwed until you are a grandfather! I decided to deal with the emotional and siritual issues I wrestled with and leave the legal stuff for angrier men than me (if there are any : ) ) who live in another county.
    http://www.sometimesdaddiescry.blogspot.com

  261. My New Years resolution is to proofread everything I post here from now on. That last post read like a stroke victim typed it!
    Brent…when Holly had me sent to jail on weekend in August, the first words out of my mouth to the judge was “I have my daughter every other weekend…what amd I supposed to do? her response..”Well you can’t take her to jail with you so I guess you don’t get to see her” I swear that on my soul. She instructed me, in June to supply her with my income information BUT rather than just handing it over to her…which would make sense…I was to call the Dept. Of Child Support services and have THEM gather the info and them she would make the adjustment. Okay that was June 14. On June 15 I called, they MAILED me the form required to initiate the process. (my first sign this was going to take a while) They couldn’t fax it or email it. I get the form on the 21st and fax everything to them (their request is to receive everything by fax but they will not fax anything out) by the next day, June 22 2008. As I aid earlier…it’s January 8, 2008 (Happy Birthday Elvis) and they still haven’t finished. About a hundred angry phone calls, and re-faxing everything twice more because once they lost it and another time the girl who was handling my case got let go and they don’t even know who it was assigned to.
    So…they never got around to helping me get the support lowered…BUT…they DID immediately notify my new employer of the EXISTING order ($1000 per month) and began enforcing it immediately.
    So…while they dicked around asking my ex to send her paperwork in and never once following up with her to make her comply, they had my employer taking $491 out of my $819 biweekly take home. Nice, huh?
    The put my arrearage on my credit report, and notified me that they would be siezing my IRS refund. Now I have to undo all of that. The only bright spot i that because I initiated their involvement, I can tell them to butt out.
    But I can’t get the extra $1685 back that they took.
    Now THAT stuff is where guys with no spiritual anchor go nuts and lose their minds and something tragic happens.
    I figured it was better to write about the emotional impact and maybe it would help when the system grinds away as it does.

  262. My New Years resolution is to proofread everything I post here from now on. That last post read like a stroke victim typed it!
    Brent…when Holly had me sent to jail on weekend in August, the first words out of my mouth to the judge was “I have my daughter every other weekend…what am I supposed to do? her response..”Well you can’t take her to jail with you so I guess you don’t get to see her” I swear that on my soul. She instructed me, in June to supply her with my income information BUT rather than just handing it over to her…which would make sense…I was to call the Dept. Of Child Support services and have THEM gather the info and then she would make the adjustment. Okay that was June 14. On June 15 I called, they MAILED me the form required to initiate the process. (my first sign this was going to take a while) They couldn’t fax it or email it. I get the form on the 21st and fax everything to them (their request is to receive everything by fax but they will not fax anything out) by the next day, June 22 2008. As I said earlier…it’s January 8, 2008 (Happy Birthday Elvis) and they still haven’t finished. About a hundred angry phone calls, and re-faxing everything twice more because once they lost it and another time the girl who was handling my case got let go and they don’t even know who it was assigned to.
    So…they never got around to helping me get the support lowered…BUT…they DID immediately notify my new employer of the EXISTING order ($1000 per month) and began enforcing it immediately.
    So…while they dicked around asking my ex to send her paperwork in and never once following up with her to make her comply, they had my employer taking $491 out of my $819 biweekly take home. Nice, huh?
    The put my arrearage on my credit report, and notified me that they would be siezing my IRS refund. Now I have to undo all of that. The only bright spot is that because I initiated their involvement, I can tell them to butt out.
    But I can’t get the extra $1685 back that they took.
    Now THAT stuff is where guys with no spiritual anchor go nuts and lose their minds and something tragic happens.
    I figured it was better to write about the emotional impact and maybe it would help when the system grinds away as it does.

  263. Craig, please do not take this as judgmental…it’s not. If I’m reading correctly, the mortgage industry tanked and you made the decision to ride it out by living off of your emergency fund in hopes that you could be there when it rebounds (last man standing) as you say. That is where I think you didn’t follow any of the plans. An emergency fund is not supposed to be supplemental income. It’s supposed to be for an emergency. Sudden job loss or drop in income would be considered an emergency…but either of the plans would call for you to either reduce your lifestyle to match the new income level, or to do something to address the income side of things. Again, I’m not being judgmental (honestly). You can’t say that Crown or Ramsey’s plan (or whatever) wasn’t enough. Both plans call for people to live on less than they make and not borrow money. That works for everyone. It might mean drastic changes such as significant downsizing, or extra jobs…but the concept works.

    During the time when the industry was down, did you do other things to generate income? Again, that is not a judgmental question. I’m honestly curious. If I’m reading your post correctly, it sounds like you made the decision to wait it out and live off of your emergency fund (which is great that you had one). Is that correct? If that is the case, that is what I meant when I talked about a fallback plan. Eventually, the emergency fund would run out (which it did).

    Again, this is not an attack on you. You made the decisions you thought were right at the time.

  264. You would be right except that while I was searching for additional income to augment the savings and ride it out, (I wasn’t so foolish as to sit still and wonder when it was going to end) the ex got a judgement and grabbed all the savings. So in a matter of less than 10 days I was pennyless and I certainly had planned better than that. I didn’t hear your words as judgement. But…I am not the only guy to have this happen. Did those events make me “stupid”? And what about that IndyMac guy that Ramsey attacked as stupid. What if he also had money in other banks that were failing and he couldn’t get it all out in time? My point is that no matter how well someone plans, something bigger than your plan can come along and wipe you out anyway. Does that make you stupid? No. But it DOES indict the kindness and Christlikeness of someone who would call them stupid anyway, not knowing, or not caring how they got there. Until Ramsey stops his overly aggressive, superior attitude and arrogance, he is hurting people like me who truly did the best with what they had, acted responsibly, tithed beyond the minimum 10% (in fact, last year was simultaneously my worst income year AND my highest percentage of income given…go figure.) worked extra jobs, and still got swept away. I guarantee you Dave Ramsey himself didn’t endure what I did. I don’t say that in boast, I say it because I lost far more than he did, if not in strict dollar value than in depth of devastation…at no point was Dave in jail or sleeping in a car…and it made me MORE sympathetic to people in that situation, not less. You may only get ONE opportuinty in this life, to represent Jesus to someone in dire circumstances. Calling them stupid or insinuatung their stupidity isn’t the best use of that opportunity.

  265. Thanks for the response. I won’t address the Ramsey comments any more…as I said, we see things differently. But for your situation, that is very unfortunate. Was the judgment because you were behind on payments due to the decrease in income? It’s horrible how poorly dads are treated by family court.

  266. I couldn’t keep up. This will thrill you, (you too Brent) in court I told the judge, while looking at the payment record, “Your honor I sent in all the money I had sometimes. There were times when I sent in my entire paycheck because it was just enough to cover my debt. There were times when I worked a cash side job or sold something to send in the money I was short.” She tells me “Your payment date was the 15th and the 30th of the month…PERIOD. Thats whan its due and thats when you pay, if you pay part of it, or if you pay it on a different date, you are JUST AS MUCH IN CONTEMP as if you don’t pay at all”. I was aghast! I have scraped together about $3000 of the arreages over the period in question and the judge refused to give me credit for that. In other words the debt was building at $1000 per month and unless I sent in $1000 on the prescribed dates, she just wrote it off as a gift to my ex and didn’t give me credit for one penny. So they gave her a judgement for the arrearage, a portion of which I had paid, and she went to the bank and cashed out my reserves. In Tennessee you can do that. Meanwhile I am paying $4200 over the next 3 year years for my daughters braces and when I asked the court to credit half of that toward my arrearage in lieu of Holly remiburinsg me, she screamed and her attorney forced me to file a motion for that to be ordered. She would’nt just allow it, even though the court will order the split. I just grit my teeth and remind myself I only have 7 more years of this.

  267. The worst part of all of it is that for all this heartache and all the money I pay and for as skewed as the responsibility for support is in my ex wifes favor…I still only see my daughter once a week and every other weekend.

  268. Maybe the courts are tougher on Dads because there are more women in this country that are raising children alone without the help deadbeat Dads who have shirked their responsibilty.
    Many women just gave up on the court system.
    I’ve been there. I was one of them over thirty years ago.

  269. Obviously we only see your side here…but based on that, the judge sounds like she has it in for dads. That’s ridiculous to not count money that you gave as part of what you owed. I can tell you this…based on what you’ve written, if God forbid I’m ever in your situation, line item #1 in my budget will be child support payment. Looking back now, was there a way you could have generated $1000/month in secondary income to make the payments? Obviously no one knew how bad the housing market would get…or how strict the mortgage lending would go. Again, that’s not an attack. Here’s a better way to ask it…if you could go back 2 years and do it all over again, what would you do differently knowing what you know now?

  270. Muriel Robinson……she’s been around a long time. I can believe everything you are saying. I can remember as a small child hearing a man talk to my dad heartbroken over the little time he got to spend with his children. The judge was none other than Muriel Robinson.

    She’s built a reputation in Nashville as vicious towards men. She should be left unemployed.

    Haven’t child support laws in TN recently changed? At one time, you could make 30K a year and your wife 100K a year and if you had a child, you’d still be giving her 22% of your gross income.

    But I heard that now there is some complex formula they use that takes into account the income of both parents and the time spent at each house. So if you made 100K and your wife made 70K and the child spent equal time in both homes, you’d only pay child support on the 30K difference of what you made. This sounds fair. I’m just not sure if this is how it works now or not.

  271. ::::::Craig Daliessio neither issued nor endorsed the preceding posts:::::::

    HA! Yeah well that ain’t that half Brent. The good news is she is retiring next month.

    To: Time and Money…
    I’m sorry that happened to you. The VAST majority of divorced men are regular supporters and in fact, the bigger, yet unspoken issue in divorce matters not just in the U.S. but worldwide is the fact that child support is NOT tied to visitation. In other words, if the man fails to pay he goes to jail, BUT if the mother refuses to live up to the visitation order, nothing happens. If the man can even afford an attorney, he has to file a motion against her, then serve it, then wait for a court date, then hope the judge will do something more than just tell the mother she’d better start complying. Do a google search on “Disenfranchised Father Syndrome” it’s sad.

  272. Brent…Man thanks for sending that to me…you’ll love this, being the entrepeneur you are…I wrote a reply, made it as gentle as I could so as to avoid drawing the ire of her honor…and pitched my book! Perfect spot for it, right?
    Hey with that kind of pub I may reach TEN sales!
    I did, however, refer to Rose Palermo as resembling a “Sicilian Mobster in drag” all Italians hate Sicilians and it will always be thus!

  273. “Craig, I’ve never been divorced and I think I’m already more bitter about this than you!”

    I think when it is all done…about 7 years from now…I will break down and cry and then get really good and pissed at her, but for now the battle is ongoing so I can’t waste any time hating her when she is still involved. I quite literally am afraid to openly voice my concerns because you never know around here. God knows who might cut and paste something I say to her and she goes nuts on me. It actually happened to a goodf riend of mine…a woman to boot. She made a comment in a private e-mail to a friend about Muriel being “insane” because of her rulings and her friend accidentally forwarded it to another friend in the form of a prayer request because of the upcoming court date, and somehwere along the line somebody attached it to someones e-mail and her EX HUSBAND got a copy! Muriel went bonzers!

  274. “Again, that’s not an attack. Here’s a better way to ask it…if you could go back 2 years and do it all over again, what would you do differently knowing what you know now?”

    Wow! That question is dealt with in both my book on my divorce…which I just released, and the book on my homeless experience, which I am working on. The fact is there isn’t anything I could have done. I saved, I budgeted, I spent carefully, I gave above my tithe because I just plain love the privilege of participating in what God is doing. I never bought frivolously etc. And still it happened. But…standing on this mountain top after such a dark deep rocky valley…I wouldn’t change a thing. NOTHING! First of all…man, a budget, or a “system” can never take the place of God. Jesus taught parables about both financially foolish people AND the guy who worked his butt off, stored, hoarded, built bigger barns to store even more and still failed the Ultimate Test. In fact there are more parables about people who pursue wealth than about people who don’t mind their money. The bottom line is God can lay waste to your very best plans if they don’t jive with His. If what He has in mind for you requires it, you can be reduced to rags no matter how big your emergency fund is. I am merely a shade of the man I was when this began 2 years ago. Buckle up there, NC…if anything I am LESS inclined to budget and follow Dave Ramsey or Burkett or anyones financial advice. No I am not saying I’d just go wild, but when you LITERALLY live from day to day without knowing where your next meal was coming from, when you are so broke that $100 seems like a winning lotto ticket, (remember, as if all the other stuff wasn’t bad enough, while this was happening, gas climbed to over $4.50 a gallon. I’d scrape together a hundred bucks and have $20 after filling my tank!)and when you think God has abandoned you completely but you hang on for some unknown reason waiting for a change. When that change comes not in a “break” from the outside but a change in the way you see EVERYTHING and EVERONE… then you have really found that pearl of great price. I remember waking one morning and it was so cold there was frost INSIDE my car and I was so weary and so beaten and defeated and I asked God through tears “where are you” and I heard His whispered reply..”Right here…where I said I’d be. I will never leave you nor forsake you…even in the frozen front seat of your car”. I am completely convinced this was God’s plan, not a shortfall in my character or a lack of planning. God changed my view, my goals, and increased my empathy about a thousand percent. If I had approached it in the anitseptic, “what would a finance guru do?” way, I’d have missed out on the lesson of TOTAL dependence. For the first time in my adult life I could’nt fix my own problem. My self sufficiency was rendered useless. God had literally blocked every exit! I had to stay where I was until HE decided it was time. In that time he broke down the idol of self I had made. “I can do this. I can fix this. I can earn this back. My plan should have worked because…” Believe me…ten years of straight commission earnings had made me quite careful about money. But gradual success over time had left me a bit haughty in my self sufficiency. I worshipped my financial planning abilities and put my confidence in that precious “emergency fund” and in my plans and schemes. And then God laughed! For everything I told you, NC, (I wish I knew your name!) I left out something else. Looking back…this was done with SO MUCH PURPOSE! This was God’s plan…all of it. When I stopped railing against the jail time I became a minister behind bars. When I stopped bitching about sleeping in the car and not knowing where my meals would come from, I learned that Jesus really WAS homeless and now I knew what that felt like. When I began to trust him when he said that God clothes the flowers and gives sparrows their daily bread, so I shouldn’t worry, I learned that behind all the best plans of man are the better plans of God.
    I wouldn’t do ANYTHING different. and maybe that, as much as anything, is why I have such a problem with Ramsey. Instead of having ever really gotten to where I was, he only got broken enough to find the strength in HIMSELF to change, but not the strength from God. That is why there is still such arrogance and ego in that man. Because
    he never hit the REAL bottom. He was broken enough to modify…but not to change. There is a difference. Have you ever wondered why Jesus chose to come here poor and remain poor all His life. Couldn’t he have burst on the scene as a rich king? Of course He could. It’s just that Jesus was never focused on STAYING here. Either should I. I can’t be foolish and not prepare. But my HEART isn’t here so I can’t store very much treasure here. Just enough, and a little more. The last two years showed me the face of Christ, friend, and that is why I wouldn’t trade not a day. God has something more incredible yet in store and I am excited. The people out there who have truly been destroyed financially could use to hear THIS sort of teaching and a lot less of “Budget Budget budget…follow this plan and you will be okay” and a lot more of “Christ is in the middle of EVEN THIS” “let me help you find Him…”
    That is how a Christian financial advisor should host a radio show…in my opinion anyway.

  275. Craig,

    Just curious. Were you actively involved in a church when all this happened? If so, I’m just curious why they would let you sleep in a car? Under your circumstances, I’d be all for my church doing whatever they needed to help a fellow member.

    1. Hey…yes I was and yes they did to a degree. But something in my heart told me not to let them or anyone else just step in an "fix everything" even thought in my case it would have been quite proper. Turns out that intuition was from God, because He had some work to do that He was probably only going to accomplish there in my cold little Volvo. Another book, would be the easy thing to point to, but a deeper view of the homelessness of Christ and His total humanity. I am a much better man because of that 3 month period. So it was wisdom that my pastor and other responded in and even through gritted teeth, I agreed. My church is a marvelous place and I am very satisifed with the resspone that I got from them along the way.

  276. Sorry, I changed my comment system (trying this thing called Intense Debate).
    Anyways, I'm having some hang-ups getting all the old comments imported. They aren't lost, just haven't been able to get them into the new system.
    Hopefully it doesn't disrupt the conversation too much.

  277. How is it that Christians invested in truth have bought the lie of man-made global warming? Just by looking online, you can find several credible sites and sources refuting the claim, not to mention the 100's of scientist that have declared this a hoax. While we need to be wise in how we care for and use our resources, we also need to be wise in the voices we listen to. Let's ignore the al gore alarmists and celebrities who a little more than you or i about this, and follow the professionals who do this for a living and know a lie when they see one

  278. Great post. You are right on target. Personally, I see Dave Ramsey as a full-blown hypocrite and it is a real problem that many people consider him to be some kind of god.

  279. Wow! You are so strong! You ditched Dave Ramsey.

    1.) Global Warming is completely unproven.
    2.) If the lady had saved $30/month would she have sponsored a child? Probably not.
    3.)Dave Ramsey doesn't your judgement. He's helped many more people than this article will.

    Have a nice day.

  280. According to the philosophy of this post – absolutely any non-essential expenditure is sinful, a "kingdom issue." Buying a shirt at the Gap as opposed to Wal-Mart is sinful because the extra $10 you spend could have been donated to a useful cause. Actually Wal-Mart clothes would be sinful too since you could have bought a shirt at the Salvation Army store and saved another $10 to spend on the noble cause of your choice. Quit trying to nitpick a guy that is genuinely attempts to help people get their finances straight. He is also a huge advocate of charitable giving. What more do you want from the guy?

  281. The fruit of the Spirit is love joy peace longsuffering, TENDERNESS, MEEKNESS, GENTLENESS…Dave must have torn those verses out in a fit of rage at one of his "Stupid" callers.

  282. Dave Ramsey doesn't need anything at all, my kool-aid drinking, Ramzealot friend. Between shuttling back and forth to work ,driving a Porsche 930, parked in the best parking spot in front of a five story building with his name plastered all over it and going home at night to a mansion that blocks out the sun on the east side of I-65…he doesn't need anything. He also couldn't care less about how all that largesse looks to all those suckahs who plunked down $200 for mediocre advice, the basis of which he horked from someone else.

  283. Dave Ramsey doesn't need anything at all, my kool-aid drinking, Ramzealot friend. Between shuttling back and forth to work ,driving a Porsche 930, parked in the best parking spot in front of a five story building with his name plastered all over it and going home at night to a mansion that blocks out the sun on the east side of I-65…he doesn't need anything. He also couldn't care less about how all that largesse looks to all those suckahs who plunked down $200 for mediocre advice, the basis of which he horked from someone else.

  284. I am amazed at how long this thread keeps running. Not amazed at the life it has, but amazed at how many Ramsey-ites will rush to defend this man when his FAR from Christlike methods and arrogance are called into question. The amazing thing is how the responses are just as crass and arrogant as he is himself. Maybe birds of a feather really do flock together.

  285. There has been ONE guy here who has defended Ramsey with principaled argument and not attack. The rest will gnaw on your very last bone if you dare point out the feet of clay that their hero stands perched upon. I have a friend here in town who pulled his ads off WTN because they would not guanrantee they wouldn't run during Ramsey's show. My friend does not want that attitude associated with his business so he stopped the ads altogether and switched to WLAC. He grew up here and knew Ramsey when he was an ego driven realtor. His words to me were "Dave is the EXACT same guy who got into trouble because of pride and ego…he just figured out how to make more money than he can spend. Cut off that massive cash stream and he'd be broke again eventually" Then my friend told me this and it sums up Ramsey perfectly. This man knows because he grew up here and saw it first hand he said: "Dave was broke, but not broken. That's the problem I have with him"

  286. Or maybe you have a problem with someone speaking with authority about getting out of debt. Perhaps you would rather have your debt and feel pious about it.

  287. It's amazing to me how Ramzealots will turn the argument away from his pompousity and arrogance and unChristlike attitude and into either a personal attack or a defense of the success of "his" teaching. (It's all Larry Burketts teachings, in fact) Yet they scream about their "godliness" because they are close to being debt free. There was a Beatitude about being poor in spirit and one about being meek…but none about being a debt free braggart with an ego the size of a third world country. I don't share the pollyanna view of the author this blog…I like my toys and wouldn't mind a little more cash. But If given the choice between behaving in a Christlike fashion and being a good example of what Jesus would do in a situation, or being debt free and an arrogant ass who brays like a donkey about his own acheivements and plasters his name on anything that stands still for more than ten seconds, and parades his successes around like a peacock…give me the debt.

  288. I've read throgh the post and just have one question about some of the post. Weather you like him or hate him I don't care. My question is- How can some of you speak of God in one sentence and in the next spit out such hateful things about others? I feel that takes away from the Kingdom or am I mistaken? Please explain? Just curious to know if I can get a responds without someone hurling an insult or can I get a justified anwser that glorifies God?

    Thanks

  289. Ramsey has not refused to say whether he paid his creditors – in fact, he has stated in many places that he went back and paid his creditors off, after initially walking away from the debts. he was convicted and went back and paid his creditors. He has been open about this, and that fact is easily available through a google search.

  290. I haven't read all 13 pages yet but I found a lot on the first page funny.

    For instance if you have a 30 year mortgage at 4.5% and you could pay it off or get those 12% returns that DR seems to think you will consistently get you are being foolish if you pay it off early. Your payment is $1267 a month if that is a $250K house. Now let's presume you have an extra $600 that you can either use to pay off the house early or invest. Paying the house off early knocks it out in about 15 years and 7 months. To keep if fair after that all $1867 is put in the market.

    Investing and having the mortgage (value in 30 years house paid for) $2,096,978
    Paying the mortgage first (value in 30 years with first 187 months paying off house) $857,400

    Before you ever started investing the guy that invested the entire time had $325,699 sitting in his account. In fact with that difference in rates, by investing the difference he could have paid his house off faster if he wanted to do so. Five years before the guy that is not saving for his retirement.

    Dave Ramsey is a tool. It is plain and simple to see. He is trying to sell books and more importantly his FPU. He wants you to shell out money to come and see him because that is how he has made and continues to make his money. His advice is much like telling a diabetic to eat less. It sounds good but have a diabetic go into shock from not eating for 12 hours is not doing that person any good.

    I agree that some of DR's listeners have no understanding of credit. What they become though is dry drunks. They never address why they got into the problems that they did, they just avoid one enabler.

    As to bankruptcy being the same as stealing from a creditor. That is the dumbest thing I have heard in a long time. If I buy stock and the company goes out of business my money was not stolen. If I buy a bond and the company goes under my money was not stolen. They have a bond on you paying xx% interest and you are obligated under the terms to pay each month. If you must restructure and can't pay back then you are not stealing. You are just not as good of an investment as they thought.

    For the record, I don't think someone can get 12% year over year in the market. Averages are averages and for DR imply that over the long term you should have 25% international, 25% small cap, 25% mid cap, and 25% large cap is just stupid. He has no understanding of the stock market (he is a failed real estate investor that makes money selling crap including selling leads to ELP) and to say that people should be exposed to that much risk (which is far riskier then the returns would warrant) as they approach their retirement is unconscionable.

    Run don't walk from this man.

  291. Awwwww I'm tellinnnnnn'! Ben… I am glad you said this, and not me. I get bruised here regularly. I love the "dry drunk" analogy…never thought of it like that before. It's actually pretty dead-on accurate. I see you have the same disdain for realtors as well.
    For me…while I know his advice is lousy and aimed at selling even MORE of his stuff, (talk to REAL professionals in the investing and insurance industry…they laugh at the poor quality of his advice…) my issues with the man go to his brash, thoughtless, arrogance all the while proclaiming his Christianity. I don't doubt his christianity a bit…I just doubt that his view of Jesus is biblical. I can't see Him behaving the way Dave does. Your points were brilliant, factual, well thought out…and will be attacked as heresy…so hang on!

  292. There is no such thing as global warming, heaven, hell or God. You people are a bunch of lemmings. Stop wasting your time and just enjoy your life.

  293. I don't think you know enough about Dave's teachings to make posts like this. Also, I would challenge your knowledge of what scripture says about wealth. The one time the Bible absolutely guarantees that one action will lead to another every time, is on the subject of giving. It states that when you tithe and give money away, God will reward you. Also, the Bible doesn't say anything about everyone having to be poor and give all their money away. God blesses some people with wealth so they can use it to help others. That doesn't mean all that money has to be given away, otherwise why would the wealth be of any value or desire of yours? Dave has helped millions, and his teachings are strictly based on the word of God. Dave also says "when you live like no one else, later you can GIVE like no one else." That's another common phrase of his, which you will hear many many times when listening to his show. You are ignorant regarding Dave Ramsey's teachings, and a little ignorant on your knowledge of scripture as well.

  294. Thanks for stopping by to comment Ryan.
    I completely agree, I might not know enough of Dave's philosophy or teachings to say he doesn't encourage giving, but as I pointed out in my post regarding the incident I was referring to, I was disappointed in his response.

    As far as your statement of my ignorance of scripture, I think you might be a little off on that. I'd like to see some scriptural backing to your statements:

    “when you tithe and give money away, God will reward you”
    “God blesses some people with wealth so they can use it to help others.”
    “That doesn't mean all that money has to be given away”

    You point me to some scripture references on that.

  295. Thanks for stopping by to comment Ryan.
    I completely agree, I might not know enough of Dave's philosophy or teachings to say he doesn't encourage giving, but as I pointed out in my post regarding the incident I was referring to, I was disappointed in his response.

    As far as your statement of my ignorance of scripture, I think you might be a little off on that. I'd like to see some scriptural backing to your statements:

    “when you tithe and give money away, God will reward you”
    “God blesses some people with wealth so they can use it to help others.”
    “That doesn't mean all that money has to be given away”

    You point me to some scripture references on that.

  296. Thanks for stopping by to comment Ryan.
    I completely agree, I might not know enough of Dave's philosophy or teachings to say he doesn't encourage giving, but as I pointed out in my post regarding the incident I was referring to, I was disappointed in his response.

    As far as your statement of my ignorance of scripture, I think you might be a little off on that. I'd like to see some scriptural backing to your statements:

    “when you tithe and give money away, God will reward you”
    “God blesses some people with wealth so they can use it to help others.”
    “That doesn't mean all that money has to be given away”

    You point me to some scripture references on that.

  297. Thanks for stopping by to comment Ryan.
    I completely agree, I might not know enough of Dave's philosophy or teachings to say he doesn't encourage giving, but as I pointed out in my post regarding the incident I was referring to, I was disappointed in his response.

    As far as your statement of my ignorance of scripture, I think you might be a little off on that. I'd like to see some scriptural backing to your statements:

    “when you tithe and give money away, God will reward you”
    “God blesses some people with wealth so they can use it to help others.”
    “That doesn't mean all that money has to be given away”

    You point me to some scripture references on that.

  298. Thanks for stopping by to comment Ryan.
    I completely agree, I might not know enough of Dave's philosophy or teachings to say he doesn't encourage giving, but as I pointed out in my post regarding the incident I was referring to, I was disappointed in his response.

    As far as your statement of my ignorance of scripture, I think you might be a little off on that. I'd like to see some scriptural backing to your statements:

    “when you tithe and give money away, God will reward you”
    “God blesses some people with wealth so they can use it to help others.”
    “That doesn't mean all that money has to be given away”

    You point me to some scripture references on that.

  299. Thanks for stopping by to comment Ryan.
    I completely agree, I might not know enough of Dave's philosophy or teachings to say he doesn't encourage giving, but as I pointed out in my post regarding the incident I was referring to, I was disappointed in his response.

    As far as your statement of my ignorance of scripture, I think you might be a little off on that. I'd like to see some scriptural backing to your statements:

    “when you tithe and give money away, God will reward you”
    “God blesses some people with wealth so they can use it to help others.”
    “That doesn't mean all that money has to be given away”

    You point me to some scripture references on that.

  300. May,
    Ramsey did pay his creditors back. If you don't believe me, just call him on the toll free number. After he started making some money, he believed that God wanted him to do so. His wife did not think it would be fair, however after praying abut it for some time, she agreed that it was God's will.

  301. Up front I want to be clear about my profession, I sell life insurance, and if anyone needs any send me an email…
    I do not listen to Dave on a regular basis, never did, but I do not think that is needed to get the jist of what he is saying. I think he sums it up in a tag-line they use on the show; do what your mom and dad told you to do…do what your gramma said….
    I forget the exact wording. The key to me is dont be irresponsible, dont live above your means, dont live like the marketeers want you to.
    There are so many points I want to cover…

    The first is it always makes me nervous when people start slinging the bible around with finances. It is all in the bible of course, we dont need any one to tell us…of course we do, thats what entertainers like Dave are useful for. But it still doesnt make much sense to do most of the big financial transactions he is talking about, unless you are almost in need of intervention. But, at that point you are not going to do them anyway.

  302. haha I guess if the worst thing about a guy is the advice he gave on what a 0 debt household should do with $30 then he can't be all bad! Why don't we all cancel our internet service and give what we save to 'the children?'

  303. Actually the worst thing about the guy is the way he behaves himself in light of his pronouncement that he is a Christian. Jesus would not be a pompous arrogant jerk who attacks people in trouble and brags about his wealth. Jesus would probably flip over a few tables in the Ramsey World Headquarters.

  304. Interesting conversation going on here…but I think a few of you are kind of cherry picking certain parts of Dave's "plan" to pick on, without taking the plan as a whole. From what I gather, Dave's plan is not always the fastest way to build wealth…maybe not the fastest way to get out of debt either, but when his plan is factored in with the everyday risks that life can present it seems a reasonably safe and reasonably fast way to accomplish both. Hear me out…

    The home mortgage payoff vs. total investment for instance. Yes, you can invest a bit faster if you simply carry your mortgage at 4 or 5 percent, and invest the rest regularly at a decent rate fully taking advantage of the tax breaks. But that math, with the tax break factored in (and the taxes on the investments factored in), isn't a that huge a difference for most people. Plus it doesn't really factor in risk. I think Dave's idea is a balance of safety and decent investing. If the proverbial "poo" hits the fan in your life…they can't take away your paid off home. 100% of foreclosures happen on homes with mortgages. Sure, if I pay off the house early I may have passed up the opportunity to invest some of that money early…but at retirement, if my life doesn't go perfectly according to plan, I still have my house…and some investments.

    Another example is his debt snowball way of paying off debts smallest to largest. Mathematically it would make better sense to pay of highest rate debt first, then moving on to lower rates. Again though, it's not always about math…if it was, his target audience wouldn't need him. They, like many Americans, are in debt…if they understood math and statistics, they wouldn't be. It's a behavior/mental/attitude thing. Paying off the debts smallest to largest feels good because you can normally kill one or two of them pretty quick. Bill paying is much more fun when there are less checks to write. Feels like your getting traction.

    As to some of the other comments…yes, Dave is an aggressive capitalist, he is in this to make money. Not sure when that became a bad thing in this country. His show is pretty popular, as are his books…must be doing something right.

    Dave is a Bible thumper. Sometimes he gets a bit preachy for me, but it's tolerable. I mean hey, thats his passion, thats his thing, who am I to judge. If you hate the preachy part of his advice, don't listen. I will say that the advice he gives his callers most of the time is to always be charitable, even while in debt he bangs the 10-15% of income to church or charity drum. He tells people to be good to each other and do the right thing, thats a good message no matter if derived from kindergarten or the Bible.

    From what I gather he has repaid his creditors from his bankruptcy. I can't prove that…but he has stated it on air many times, if that was false I'm sure one or two may have gone after him now that he is worth millions again. I'm also not sure why he is a hypocrite for having filed bankruptcy, then telling people not to. He openly admits he was a huge screw up and that it was the worst time of his life. Learning from your mistakes was a good thing I thought? Helping others through your own first hand experiences seems like a decent thing to do if you ask me.

    I don't know much about investments or investing, but I do know Dave's ideas are looooong term when it comes to his mutual funds…and they have a decent return over the long haul. To be honest, when a person gets to that stage of life, where they are investing a great deal of their income…they no longer really need Dave and have probably grown savvy enough to stay debt free and invest wisely.

    I just find it odd that there is so much negativity directed at a guy who is helping people become more responsible and get out of debt. I don't see how that is a bad thing regardless of the way he encourages it….be it through the Bible or his own ideas.

    In the interest of full disclosure, I'm following his plan. It's working for me. I'm almost debt free, less a car payment that I'm currently tripling up on each month, and I have never felt better. My stress level is way down, I make better money, job, and life decisions. When problems arrive in my life, I find I am much better equipped to deal with them financially. They are no longer emergencies, just problems, huge difference from my old paycheck to paycheck lifestyle. Sure, if I had always been savvy with money I would have never been in that situation…but I used to be a money idiot. As Dave says I had a PHD in D.U.M.B. …payed a lot of "stupid tax."

    I guess thats the lesson to be learned. If you had always been good with money then Dave might seem silly to you, but for me…and a lot of other people…Dave has been a pretty good help, Bible thumping and all.

    Best wishes! Dax

  305. Dave needs to act like Jesus or stop saying he follows Him. He makes the largest portion of his money specifically marketing his stuff to churches. He knows Christian people want to do business with Christian people. He owes it to the Christ he claims to follow to act like Him.

  306. If Dave can get thousands of people (a year) out of debt and get them to start giving 15% of their earning to churches or charity while doing so himself…I doubt Jesus would be too upset. He probably does make a good bit of money selling to churches…I'm sure his TV show, radio show, and books barely cover his expenses, lol.

  307. stop using religion as an excuse for irresponsibility and laziness…come to think of it…stop using bankruptsy as an excuse for irresponsibility and laziness too

  308. I can't believe this topic is 3 years old and people are still talking about it. So what have we learned at this point?

    1) Dave uses his "christian" beliefs to leverage more and more listeners who flock to his "clinics" to buy all of the packages which puts a load of money into the guys pocket.
    2) Dave takes advantage of people who already lack proper moral character into buying his products at one of the lowest times in their life instead of putting that money into something like a debt.
    3) Christian wingnuts are all over this page and continue to follow a fairytale
    4) Dave in total irony had to pray about finally paying his debts back after going bankrupt, one would think he would do it with out having to even think about it but I guess you have to decide if you want to pay a debt back. I mean he shouts at enough people to be responsible and pay your debts back on time that you would think the guy wouldn't even take 2 secs to think about it.
    5) The Nashville Scene has reported that Ramsey occasionally receives e-mails and letters containing the Biblical verse: "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24 KJV) Ramsey interprets such communications to be a rebuke of his own wealth and a call for poverty.
    6) In 2004, Ramsey's column was dropped from The Tennessean and four other newspapers owned by Gannett, Co. after it was discovered that the identities of those seeking help were duplicated or falsified in several of his columns. Ramsey attributed the duplications to a low-level employee. Ramsey offered refunds to the newspapers affected by the error.
    7) Ramsey is milking easily gullible Christians, I mean they believe in a fairy tale so it can't be that hard, into forking over money after money for his programs yet lives the life of excess and over abundance which is in direct contradiction of what Jesus was preaching what people should do.

    So there you have it people, Dave is a joke. You want me to save you a fortune in your life? Don't over spend, pay off your debts, and be responsible for your life. See there thats all of Dave's advice and I gave it to you for free.

  309. There's no global warming here! Anyway, I digress….. You must have missed lesson 13 of FPU–Giving like no one else.

  310. i think dave ramseys program works for some people and others it may be impractcal,because it depends on debt to income ratio…now when i hear callers on his show excited about being debt free there are one of two factors involved..1 the husband has at least an 80 to over 100;000 dollar income,or2 {which is the most common practice if society proves me correct}both spouse have to work ..and im not to keen on investment plans {401s,roths,cds,}in which i think you should all do what i did ,and that is move your investments in the stockmarket to outreach ministries in jesus name and you will receive treasures in heaven{remember the rich man who would not give up his belongings}

  311. i think dave ramseys program works for some people and others it may be impractcal,because it depends on debt to income ratio…now when i hear callers on his show excited about being debt free there are one of two factors involved..1 the husband has at least an 80 to over 100;000 dollar income,or2 {which is the most common practice if society proves me correct}both spouse have to work ..and im not to keen on investment plans {401s,roths,cds,}in which i think you should all do what i did ,and that is move your investments in the stockmarket to outreach ministries in jesus name and you will receive treasures in heaven{remember the rich man who would not give up his belongings}

  312. I am not a Dave fan myself, but I did hear him say on one of the shows I watched that he did go back and repay all of the creditors after his bankruptcy.

  313. I’m a disillusioned Dave Ramsey listener. He has good ideas, but I’ve learned he is not “god”. Please – be careful of using one of his ELP’s (endorsed local providers). Just because “god” Dave Ramsey endorses them, doesn’t mean they are your best deal.

  314. I decided to be more specific in my above post about ELP’s – in particular, Churchill Mortgage. I thought since “god” Dave Ramsey endorsed them, they would be fantastic! Not so – what I experienced was confusion, unhelpfulness, and not so friendly service. My local bank did a much better job for my refinance. I wish I hadn’t wasted $23 for a credit report for Churchill. I would NEVER call them again. I still listen to Dave occasionally, but I’m much more jaded about him. He has some good ideas, but I wouldn’t recommend spending any money on his products. Check out your local library for access to his books for free, plus other financial gurus. Develop a plan that works for you.

  315. What gets me is that Dave is making millions off all these people running out to his university and his live events. He has done a great job at marketing himself. I agree with some of his stuff like getting out of debt. But some of his philosophy is wrong and goes totally agains other smart financial advice. He is like a rock star that knows how to market and people believe everything he says. His investing advice is so generalized which is wrong. You can't all people in the same boat and say that they all should do the same thing. It's based on age and goals and where they are currently. Oh well he will keep making his millions like Clark Howard and all these know it alls.

  316. Dave Ramsey never tells people to go back and pay the creditors after they've filed bankruptcy….never!

  317. I've been listening to Dave Ramsey on the radio and on his website for years now (has it been ten years?). I find his show highly entertaining and have tried to implement some of his ideas into my financial life with some success. Still, I have to take a break from listening at times because of some of the things he says and the way he treats some people. Personally, I think it odd that he advises to "…walk with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus", yet he has no qualms with calling some folks "Stupid", "Idiots" and "Scum". Today I heard him say that people who don't save are "Losers". I'm no expert on Christianity, but, in my opinion, insulting people like that is not something Christ would do or approve of.

  318. Also, his use of fear and shame to manipulate listeners into doing as he says (and buy books, seminar tickets and insurance) is disturbing to me (of course, I keep listening so I guess he's doing something right). I think it's a shame, though, because I like Dave (at least what I know of him) and I think he genuinely enjoys helping people (as well as making money). I just think his arrogant "I am the only way" attitude may ultimately be his downfall. Just my opinion.

  319. Good night, Happy Fool’s Day!

    Some small-time crooks decided that people were so stupid that they would accept 18 dollar bills if somebody gave then any. So they carefully made some plates and printed some up, and went to a small town to try them out. They got up to a shopkeeper and talked for a while, then casually said, “Say, can you give me change for an 18 dollar bill?”
    “Sure” said the old shopkeeper. “What would you like, three 6’s or two 9’s?”

    Happy April Fool’s Day!

  320. Dave Ramsey strongly encourages giving! It is the very first thing on the budget forms. As far as the environment goes. Global warming is joke. And… More carbon monoxide comes from people and animals passing gas then vehicle emissions.

  321. Craig, if you are still reading this….I hope things are going better for you. And I hope your book has sold.
    One cannot always prepare for security in this life. The Bible tells us that moths will eat at our treasure, or robbers will steal it. There is no secure place to save $$, as so many of us have found out this last couple of years. Dave Ramsey's advice may help some people, but it sure wouldn't have helped Job. Life's unexpected medical emergencies, lawsuits, bad stock market, etc. can trash any of our treasures, if they're stored here on earth. So I hope you don't feel as though there was anything you should have done differently. I don't get that feeling, though, in reading your comments.

    But you do have so much anger at Dave Ramsey. Anger is not one of the fruits of the Spirit. In fact, we're told in Matthew that if we're angry with our brother, we will be subject to punishment.
    I learned a while back that anger is a secondary emotion. It always follows a split second after another feeling, a feeling of being slighted, or envy/jealosy, or hurt, etc. Only you can know what emotion you have felt before you feel the anger at Dave Ramsey….but it doesn't sound like you've worked through this. I think your walk with the Lord will not be whole until you have dealt with the anger you feel.

    But I do hope things are better for you these days.

  322. I know this is a very old post and i don't know if the original author even still keeps up with it, but when i read it i could not help but to post a response. Your thoughts are heart felt and sincere; however, you speak from the view of a minimalist. They wanted to spend $30 more a month to enjoy something better. You being more minimal than they, saw this as a "kingdom issue". I propagate this to you brother, if you more than they are minimal, how do you compare to another. For this example look at John the baptist in the Bible. The man at honey and bugs and wore animal skins! What then, if he looked to you? No doubt he would consider himself the minimalist and you a luxury engulfed selfish man of the world. Matthew 7:1-2: "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." You used a measuring stick of $30 when considering the thoughts and actions of Dave Ramsey and the caller. For your case, i hope you are living within 30 dollars of how John the baptist lived if you are judging someone else for not being as minimal as YOU are.

    1. Michael,

      Thanks for the comment. I could be wrong, but if you read through the whole post, I think you'll find I'm not the one claiming or judging. I'm pointing out that the lady calling in was leaning toward not spending the $30 more (she was the minimalist), and instead of Dave Ramsey, who she looked to as a leader, encouraging and esteeming her stewardship and sacrifice, he told her she was being a tight-wad and to loosen up.
      My point in the post (which I'll hope you see apparent if you re-read it), is first that I'm troubled by Dave's second part of "live like no one else" line, and second, that leaders in the church don't encourage individuals stewardship and "minimalist" living (like the women who called in).

      My goal wasn't to pass judgment on anyway. And most who chime in to comment sarcastically try and call me out on things. I wish they would! I wish more would compare me to John the Baptist and ask me to consider my possessions and my lifestyle in light of that measuring stick. And to question every $30. So, please don't just use that as an argument to win your point, do it out of a sincere heart, calling me and others to more Christ-like lives of sacrificial love.

  323. Your point of view is very off. Global warming does not exist, that is a lie told by people who want your money.

  324. mission for the author…
    go back complete fpu…
    listen to dave….
    then reread your post it is full of contradictions… such as $30 matters because they should be good stewards this comes a few sentences after stating that had paid off all their debt and were free to do as others could not. even the quickest reading of daves offerings would have given you the line you chose to leave off for his famous quote. the line where dave explains that you can give like no one else. broke people can do less than debt free people, i know i have been both. shame on you for spreading lies

    1. No. I've moved 3 times in the last 4 years and haven't yet had access to Fox Business News. Most people only know he's on there from him mentioning it on his radio show.

  325. hi pete,
    my family and I are christian workers in se asia. we came back to the states to our home fellowship here in the states to see that the congregation was all going through FPU. we also went through it and i have to admit, it was very, very difficult for us to sit in a group with people who are talking about financial goals, new cars, retirement, vacations, and all the things that can be done w/ money. even though mr. ramsey does talk about giving, it seems like the greater focus is on "living like no one else" in the future. it is easy to get the impression that mr. ramsey believes it is okay to purchase toys like boats and harleys and to be comfortable if you are out of debt and have a surplus. and perhaps it is okay. it's sure tough though, having been in the depths of despair with so many, not even having an extra $7 USD to pay for a child to get IV fluids at a local hospital… not b/c we are in debt, but b/c we live off of support of churches and individuals and that money can only go so far.
    it was more difficult than I can express to listen to people talk about financial security, and portfolios, and paying off the volvo that they flew, as a family, to watch being constructed… these are the same people who could not afford to give to the mission, not even $30/ month. so, for some people, $30/ month is a kingdom issue b/c it's a heart issue, it is a stewardship issue. what happened to people giving all they had so that none were in need? where is the passion in the church, the zeal, that moves people to drive a basic car without a dvd player or a navi system, to purchase a smaller house, to do without the latest phone upgrade to not have granite countertops?
    i admit that i have truly wrestled with cynicism. mr. ramsey's fpu is incredible. our family has not had credit cards or debt for the past two years. these principals are biblical and i am truly grateful for that. it does seem though that mr. ramsey could go even further with giving and perhaps lessen the focus on "living like no one else" in the future.

  326. It's interesting to me that so many people get upset that Dave encourages people to put off bankruptcy. I've heard him say that sometimes it becomes necessary to file bankruptcy, so it's not that he says never, but with the number of lawyers who advertise encouraging people to file Chapter 13, I know that there are people who get scared and file sooner than they have to. These ads make it sound like a quick and easy way to get creditors off of your back. A lot of people don't think of the long term disadvantages of bankruptcy including having to check the box saying "yes" every time you fill out an application asking if you have ever filed for bankruptcy for the rest of your life. It's not just creditors who care…many potential (or current) employers ask too. I know that my husband's credit report can be pulled at any time and it can affect his employment. You can have a hard time getting a license in certain jobs if you have a bankruptcy on your record. When it's necessary, it's necessary, but it's not a decision to take lightly and I think any reputable financial advisor would discourage it whenever possible.

  327. Dave is in a "can't win" situation at times. When he finds out a husband has cheated or abandoned his wife, or is a drug addict, or something similar, he gets into the morality of the issue once in a while. It can't be helped. His financial advice has been consistent from day one. It has worked for my wife and myself. We now have the opportunity to do and go anywhere we please at an early retirement age. I followed his advice after following my dad's similar advice from day one. LIVE WITHIN (below if possible) YOUR MEANS! Simple. Even the government does not understand that simple concept.

  328. I've also heard Dave say on air that he went back and repayed his former creditors. He spoke specifically about how difficult it was to do since his creditor had closed that account. They did not know what to do with the money. May…maybe you shouldn't make a "statement of fact" until you have actually found out if it is a fact.