It’s seems when it comes to Christian voting decisions there are two main issues I hear spoken about on the Christian radio and from the pulpits. Gay Marriage is one of those and I’ve had a hard time wrapping my mind around why. As I mentioned earlier, in high school I probably would have agreed to vote Republican and outlaw gay marriage and wouldn’t have given it a second thought, but when I started thinking about it I came to some challenges. Regardless of whether or not you thinking Homosexuality is a sin, I think the points below are still valid, and so, we’ll stipulate for the rest of the post that you the reader, consider it a sin.
Gay Marriage is not Homosexuality
The legal issue of whether or not we recognize a gay couple as married has nothing to do with keeping anyone from sinning. There are many people in active homosexual relationships, a law outlawing them to be recognized as legal married, has nothing to do holding back the tides of immorality.
Marriage recognized by the Government isn’t the same as Christian Marriage
Christians historically made a huge mistake when we started confusing the marriage license you get from the government with the marital union recognized by God. The definition of marriage by the government in no way changes the definition of marriage by God, they are two entirely different things and we do ourselves and society a disservice when we confuse them.
Gay Marriage is an issue of Civil Rights
Whether you agree with this statement or not, that is the motivation and passion behind it. It is not some hidden ‘homosexual agenda’ out to corrupt society and our youth. A married homosexual couple would like to enjoy the same legal benefits as a married heterosexual couple. Benefits like making medical or end-of-life decisions for their partner, being with them in the emergency room, and the hundreds of rights, benefits and protections of marriage.
Gay Marriage is an opportunity to encourage Loving Monogamy
Besides the necessity of marriage being one man and one woman, Christians recognize there are many other values and qualities a spouse needs to bring the a marriage in order for it to thrive. Some of those include: selfless love, putting others before themselves, commitment, and monogamy. These are all values Christian find Biblical basis for and esteem to in their own marriages (though we often fall short). Gay couples desire to be married is an opportunity for the church to esteem those values and commitments in these individuals. This sort of support does not have to ignore or eliminate that the church disagrees with homosexual relations, but it is an opportunity to draw out the Christ-like qualities in people and their relationships. When my wife esteems me for making a delicious omlette I know it doesn’t repeal the fact that I’m a total slob at times.
That’s enough for now, I’ll hit up part two on the topic tomorrow.
I actually don’t really care about all this, which may surprise you. It is a fact that sin is all around us. My only concern is the confusion that seeing open homosexuality may have on kids. Then again, there is plenty of heterosexual misbehavior as well, and plenty of other kinds of sin going on that kids will see, so it is tough for me to say that this one thing is the last straw or something like that.
I will say, however, that from a purely Christian perspective we believe that homosexual behaviour is another manifestation of the brokenness and sinfulness of humanity, and anything that encourages, facilitates, or celebrates it is surely something that the Enemy loves and works for, and something that grieves God. Like many sins, it is a twisting of God’s design and plan. In this case, it is a twisting of God’s design for life-partnering and sexual expression.
So, given that, do Christians really want to defend or facilitate in any way something that the Enemy loves, and something that grieves God, including in the name of “civil rights”?
(Of course I am aware that there are plenty of “Christian” groups that think that homosexual behaviour is not sinful at all, so if that is your thing, gentle reader, then I am not talking about you.)
For me, unless I am going to protest and try to pass laws against all extra-marital sex, or for that matter any other sin ranging from drunkenness to giving people nasty looks, then I am not going to protest or freak out over this one. I surely am not going to support it either.
Ariah, I like your post. I don’t know how I feel about your last point, but otherwise I agree with what you’re saying. Marriage in the eyes of God has nothing to do with what the government says marriage is.
A point I want to make is that I am not interested in getting non-Christians to be moral people. The last thing that I want and I believe God also feels this way, is for non-Believers to life good, upstanding moral lives apart from Christ. The purpose of the rule is to show us how sinful we are, so that we would see our need for Christ. If we as Christians get all the non-Christians to live impeccable, moral lives, yet with faith in Christ, I think we have done God a dis-service. He wants them, not their attempts at righteousness. As far as I’m concerned, non-Christians can live as sinful lives as they want and that will only take them closer to Christ, because they will come to see the hollowness and futility in the things they are doing to try to find meaning and purpose, and come to the same conclusion that Solomon does in Ecclesiastes, that everything (pleasure, toil, wisdom, etc.) is meaningless with God. If we get all the non-Christians to be moral without God, then they won’t realize their need for God.
Two quick points:
1. There are Christian same-sex marriages. A person being Christian does not in any way guarantee that person will be anti-same-sex marriage. Good, honest, pious Christians can disagree about this issue, but they’re all still Christians.
2. Zach: Your view of “what God wants” is very depressing! Thank God you are wrong! You said, “The last thing that I want and I believe God also feels this way, is for non-Believers to life good, upstanding moral lives apart from Christ.” Why does this scare you? Is it because, if it is shown to be possible to live a good, upstanding moral life without being a Christian, then that would prove that one does not need to be Christian in order to be moral? Surely you don’t believe that it is impossible to be moral unless you are a Christian?
Stephen –
I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but for my part at least, I am coming at this from the perspective that God’s design is for a man and a woman to become mates, and that homosexual behaviour is sinful.
I think that is where Ariah is, and sounds like Zach is as well.
Sounds like this is not your point of reference. If indeed it is not, then it is logical that you would have no qualms from a moral, religious, or political perspective with regard to homosexual behaviour or gay marriage.
No, it’s not my “point of reference,” as you put it, but my intent was not to talk you out of your beliefs; rather, I just wanted to point out that: 1. Your interpretation of Christianity is not the only one, and that others can disagree with you without being automatically labeled as “sinners” or some such; and 2. Zach’s view that, without a belief in (his/your version of) Christianity, it is not possible to be moral, is disturbing, problematic from an intellectual standpoint, and, ultimately, wrong from an orthodox Christian viewpoint.
That’s all! Not trying to start a fight, just a conversation. I get the impression from your response to my comment that people who don’t think like you guys aren’t welcome here. If that’s the case, I will go quietly away and never bother you again … but that would be sad!
Stephen –
I was not getting all up in your grill at all. Goodness.
If you think that “people who don’t think like you guys aren’t welcome here”, then you should look at the conversations I have had here. I’ve been pretty sure I would be booted many times becuase I almost always disagree with Ariah, and yet he lets me stay.
Your sentiments are probably more “mainstream” for this space than mine.
Aaron, it makes me smile to see you chiming in here. Maybe we still have an opportunity to create a constructive dialog of a variety of opinions.
Stephen, you are always more then welcome, regardless of your view point. As Aaron mentioned you’ll find a variety of views (much of it recently is dialog between he and I), and my hope is that you do stick around and help round out the discussions even more.
As to some of the questions raised. I’m sort of choosing to abstain from opinion on “whether homosexuality is a sin.” I’m not exactly sure what I believe, and I don’t know that I’m necessarily in a place to need to form an opinion on it.
for those of you who find it immoral because of your religious beliefs, do you believe it is proper to pass laws banning it?
Stephen – I was actually surprised to get the response from you. I didn’t realize this was something that Christians disagreed on. Let me be clear about one thing and maybe this will clear up why we disagree. I firmly believe in the Bible and I try to get my theology straight out of there. If that’s not something that you’re into, then I can totally see why we would disagree. If you also use the Bible authoritatively, then I think we should talk about this, because I really feel like this is what the Bible teaches.
I do think you can be “moral” without being a believer, but I don’t that morality means very much. In Isaiah 64:6 it says that “all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags…” Or in Romans 8:7-8 it says “for the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” I feel like the book of Hebrews and the book of Romans is all about this. In Romans 3 it say “there is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one…therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.” The “moralness” of those who don’t have Christ does not please Him and it is not credited to them as righteousness. Rather, apart from God, trying to follow the Law only points out your sinfulness more. The nature of the gospel is that we are sinners and we need God’s grace to cease to be slaves to sin. Being “moral” on our own without Christ dishonors Him because we can’t do it for real and we are rejecting His grace that will truly make us righteous in God’s sight.
Do you still disagree with what I’m saying? If so, where in Scripture are you getting this from?
C – In response to your question, no, I do not think we should ban gay marriage. I believe that this country is supposed to stand for freedom and liberty, and it is hypocritical to deny that right to people just because of their sexual orientation. And, like I’ve already written about, I don’t see any good reason to force a Christian morality on someone who does not believe in our God.
I have to agree also that I would not be for banning gay marriage. As stated before, however, I don’t think I would be comfortable supporting the specific sanctioning of it either.
Zach and aaron – thank you for your honest and well thought out answers. seriously.
I always think that its a little dangerous when someone says that they get their theology straight from the Bible. So do lots of people who disagree on all manner of things. Is it possible that the Bible is a little more difficult to interpret and apply to our lives than we like to admit? I’m in the Episcopal Church which is currently having a knock down drag out fight over the “issue” of homosexuality and honestly I can see both sides. I think that eventually almost everyone (Christians included) will be ok (for better or worse) with homosexuality. There have been so many things that Christians have changed their minds about (usury, in many cultures divorce, monogamy vs. polygamy, etc.). Isn’t God’s grace enough to cover us even if we turn out to be wrong on a few things? Honestly, I don’t see why this one thing in particular is seen as so much worse than anything else. Things like the prosperity gospel are, in my opinion, more damaging to the spread of the true gospel then any disagreement on sexuality.
Indie – I think I agree with you completely. Let me just clarify what I meant before. I think reasonable, intelligent Christians can disagree on their interpretations of scripture tremendously, that it’s Scripture that is God-inspired, not our interpretation of it. I was double-checking to see if we’re both coming at this from different interpretations of what the Bible says, or if Stephen does not believe in the Bible. I was just trying to find out what our common ground is.
I agree that there are some hard to understand passages in the Bible. At my church they are doing a series for the summer based on submitted questions. There was a question that came in about why, assuming God wants regular people to understand his word, that it is so hard to understand?
If you are interested, the outline of the message is here: http://christcommunity.org/Portals/0/susans/08.03.08worship.pdf
The part of that message that applies in this case is the principle that 1) if the Bible gives a command then it is a command, and 2) what is the plain meaning that the original readers of the scripture would have understood.
I personally don’t see the ambiguity in any of the passages that deal with extra-marital sexual behaviour or homosexuality. They are really very straightforward.
I think that really the issue is that some people just don’t like the commands about those matters, and so they look for ways to explain it away. They are largely reacting to the problem of judgmental “Christians” lording over what sin is worse than others. Being judgmental like that is not right and not Biblical, but neither is picking and choosing what you will agree with in the Bible. Don’t get mad at me yet – first please read below.
We have all sinned in big and small ways, and we all deserve death and eternal separation from God as a consequence. Jesus did not come to tell us that all those things we do that are sinful are actually OK, or that he understands that life is tough and so he decided to let it slide. No, he came to live a perfect, blameless life, and then to die in order to pay for our sins. So, God can accept us and fellowship with us and forgive us now not because we are really ok and our behavior is OK, but because the debt is paid by Jesus’ sacrifice.
The problem for those of us who think that the Bible is clear on homosexual behavior is that we treat that sin as a super-sin, and those who practice it as some sort of super-sinner. Therefore, for us to sit in judgment over one sin or another, or one sinner or another is totally twisted and wrong. Homosexual activity, stealing, gossiping, lying, holding a grudge – all those things and more are sins. However, our place as Christians is not to judge and reject people for doing those things. We do all those and more ourselves. We should not teach that those things are not sins in order to avoid “judging” people, rather we should teach that God has made a way for us to be forgiven for our sins, regardless of what sins those may be.
So, for the forgiven Christian the issue is not whether we are going to be condemned for any sin that we commit, including having gay sex. Those who have accepted Christ are forgiven for those things. However, that does not mean that we should go out and rob banks, hate our neighbors, or have gay sex just becuase we can get away with it. Jesus would often say “go and sin no more”, not go and live it up because you are forgiven. Our behaviour now is for the purpose of offering a fragrance to God, not trying to gain his favor or avoid his condemnation, because we can do neither by our actions. Also, where our behavior strays in to sin we harm ourselves (“there is pleasure in sin for a season, but in the end comes destruction”) and others, and for that reason as well we should avoid sin.
I am reminded every day by my sin how great a lowly a sinner I am and how much my sin hurts me and others, which in turn reminds me of how great a salvation God has provided for me.
I completely agree with you. My husband and I were talking about this the other night, and I probably mentioned every one of your points for the reasons why I’m just not convinced that it’s THAT big a deal. Thanks for writing.